From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 18 12:38:03 1998 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Who? (Re: The Plan for SAM.) References: <350ec63d.11723027@mail.enterprise.net> X-Mammoth-Status: Aware X-{giggle}: Lots! From: The Giggler Date: 18 Mar 1998 12:20:35 +0000 In-Reply-To: Samsboss@Postmaster.co.uk's message of "Tue, 17 Mar 1998 18:54:18 GMT" Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.66/Emacs 19.34 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1246 Lines: 37 Samsboss@Postmaster.co.uk (Samsboss) writes: > Okay, I've been reading, and knowing Bob is away today (happy birthday > Bob) I thought I would just reply to this one. Is this supposed to prove a point or something? Happy Birthday Bob. > > At 10:02 pm +0000 16/3/98, BrenchleyR wrote: > > >I respect people who have proved themselves. Not only in > > >programming but in business, and in life in general. I have taken > > >time, much time, to explain why > > > > Why has business skill got anything to do with whether or not a decent > > operating system could be written in Sam C? > > Excuse me Andrew, but business skills have everything to do with the > future of SAM, unless of course you are happy to see it remain a small > interest machine so you can exaggerate your own importance. Now I could be mistaken but the question Andrew asked was (As you can see above ...) 'Why has business skill got anything to do with whether or not a decent OS could be written in Sam C' NOT 'Why has business skill got anything to do with the future of the SAM' , which is the question you answered. In future please don't try to imply someone asked a question other than the one they actually did :) Lee. -- Yawn And Walk North From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 18 12:38:03 1998 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Who? (Re: The Plan for SAM.) References: <199803181109.LAA08508@chalca.comlab.ox.ac.uk> X-Mammoth-Status: Aware X-{giggle}: Lots! From: The Giggler Date: 18 Mar 1998 12:22:35 +0000 In-Reply-To: Ian Collier's message of "Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:09:25 +0000 (GMT)" Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.66/Emacs 19.34 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 184 Lines: 10 Ian Collier writes: > And anyway, what is your software, so we can avoid it in future? X-Mailer: Forte Free Agent 1.1/16.230 Hth. Lee. -- Yawn And Walk North From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 18 14:14:05 1998 Message-Id: <199803181335.NAA09657@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:35:11 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Who? (Re: The Plan for SAM.) In-reply-to: <802565CB.0034ECCE.00@uks.postmaster.co.uk> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 245 Lines: 12 > If you wanted a reply you would put your address on it, if you didney want > a reply there would be no need for it. what's the difference between bing crosby and walt disney? bing crosby sings and walt disney made me chuckle anyway dave From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 18 18:18:00 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980318125740.006c30f8@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:57:40 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Time Out Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1041 Lines: 25 Alright folks... I'm off. I'll probably resubscribe in a month or so. Frode -- it's not mandatory to include the documentation comments. Rather, I see them working like the JavaDoc comments. A separate program will strip these out and compare them with the symbol table for validity, and can then generate documentation from them. More than anything else, it's to make my job a little easier when putting together the HTML docs for the source files I'll be including with the system (which will also include some "demo coding" routines for those who want them ;)) Allan -- Nice One! I'll take a look at it when I get chance. As for everyone else, talk to you soon. Enjoy the Gloucester show. Wish I'd be in the country for it. Bbye for now, Simon +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | "You know... you can tell someone's vain when they quote themselves | | in their own .sig file..." -- Simon Cooke | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 18 19:39:48 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: <58397123.351018b4@aol.com> Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:55:46 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: H2O Assembler Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 887 Lines: 38 In a message dated 18/03/98 04:29:47, you write: > >Here's the info on the project so far: > >Auto documentation: > >The assembler can be directed to create HTML documentation based on comments >in the source file. It is hoped that this will make it easier to work on >large projects. The document comments will have their NAME tags checked with >the symbol table. > >Doc comments are bracketed with >;@DOC@ >and >;@ENDDOC@ > >Package declarations should only appear at the start of a file, and document >what the entire file covers. > >Other tags include: > >;@NAME@ >;@AUTHOR@ >;@VERSION@ >;@DATE@ >;@REGISTERS@ > >More info later when I have a keyboard. Still working on the fine detail of >the rest. > Not a bad idea, but give the option to turn off HTML and output straight text. Also, could you make control characters like the @ part of a table that can be changed? -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 18 19:39:48 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:55:49 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: The Plan for SAM. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2002 Lines: 57 In a message dated 17/03/98 02:46:47, you write: >> Error handling and disc formatting would be two examples off the top of my >> head. But that is not the real point. You can start with any lanuage to >prove >> a concept, then speed up the bits that are needed to get an acceptable >overall >> speed. > >technically i suppose, yes. >in practice, of course, everyone who's anyone knows full well that >the finished product (if indeed there will be one) will never be >written in Basic and that every component will have to be written in >either assembler or (if you insist) sam C. and the point there >would be that, if you are set to write the OS in Basic first, and >then tweak it until it's acceptable (and that doesn't just mean >speed, it means security and reliability too), then why not just sit >down, think a little harder at the start, and save yourself the job >of rewriting a basic program in machine code. just do it in code from >the outset. Because that is, more often than not, the better way of doing it. Write the /real difficult bit/ in whatever code you want, put it into a framework written in whatever language is quickest to write in, test it and see. If it works then fine, add it to the routines you are happy with and move on to the next. If it doesn't work you have not lost months of low level coding. It is more of a bottom up than a top down approach. > >or (if you insist) sam c. > I've never said anything about using SAM C. C on SAM maybe, further down the road. But not SAM C. > >i dispute the claim that you can start with any language to prove a >concept, especially in the art of operating-system design. and >especially in the case of sam basic. Dispute away. But it works, I've seen it done on many machines and SAM is no different. > > > >> Who said anything about SAM C/Basic ? > >er, you i believe, repeatedly No, didn't. I think you misunderstood and confused C on whatever (including SAM) with SAM C. Ditto with Basic. > > >dave -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 18 19:39:48 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:55:56 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: hurry,hurry,hurry... Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 602 Lines: 22 In a message dated 17/03/98 20:51:52, you write: >On Thu, 12 Mar 1998 15:32:22 EST, you wrote: > >> Get yer votes in for a "lets get plastered in Gloucester" weekend everyone! >> >> Tis only a few weeks away now, and for once it'd be nice to be organised... >> >> ie I want to buy my train ticket *now* to get it cheaper, so I'm looking >for >> someone else to turn up so I won't have to go out on my tod. Those nasty >boys >> in the nightclub might start a real fight then... >> >I could be your bodyguard :) > > Ok, you got two legs, two arms, a head..... But Kevin Cosner? No way... -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 18 19:39:50 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: <8610b423.351018b5@aol.com> Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:55:47 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Who? (Re: The Plan for SAM.) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 721 Lines: 26 In a message dated 17/03/98 02:46:47, you write: >> Because, if, in this life, each individual person had to absorb the >evidence >> themselves, we would still be in the stone-age. There are times in life >when >> you just have to accept that someone has reached a conclusion and respect >that >> conclusion unless you have evidence to the contrary. > >bollocks. > >i claim that people do not even need to absorb the evidence to feel >happy, but it's always a nice touch to present them with some *form* >of evidence. > >rather than just say 'look, i'm right, let's just take that as read >and carry on shall we?' > >dave But sometime it is necessary to say just that Dave, or we will never get anywhere. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 18 19:39:51 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: <1e1b9623.351018bd@aol.com> Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:55:55 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Who? (Re: The Plan for SAM.) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2574 Lines: 79 In a message dated 17/03/98 18:56:22, you write: > > >In a message dated 16/03/98 23:31:16, you write: > ^^^ > ||| > >Now I suppose someone will complain because I don't manually insert >the name Andrew Collier here because the software doesn't do it. Well >tosh! I people want to use email for this sort of thing they have to >accept what email software does. > > >Okay, I've been reading, and knowing Bob is away today (happy birthday >Bob) I thought I would just reply to this one. Thanks, another year older and deeper in debt :( But did you have to let on to everyone? [snip] > >A question for you Andrew. Draw up a list what Bob and Format >Publications has done for SAM over the years. Be honest. I know there >are some things that you will not be aware of and I'm not going to >belittle you if you can't list one of them, just make a list because >that will tell us a lot about what you know of Bob's abilities. > >You see, I think you are so full of your own importance and abilities >that you fail to see those in other people. You certainly have failed >to give credit where credit was due several times in the past. So do a >list, I'll even start you off with a few, see what you can add. > >Started INDUG in 1987. >Worked with MGT on Disciple and +D DOS. >Produced Format for over 10 years. >Helped in design phase of SAM. >Introduced Dr Andy Wright to Bruce Gordon. >Run 9 shows in Gloucester. Oh come on! Can't we start with toilet training, I managed that by senior school :) > >> >> >certain things need to be done. Why should I go on knocking my head >against >> a >> >brick wall? >> >> Because everybody else seems to have to. >> >> Look, we've been pointing out in minute detail exactly why we don't think >> your ideas are useful. The least you can do is reply, in similar detail. > >Detail, what detail? Claims, mostly from you, but no detail. >On the other hand, Bob has at least mapped out the project. > >> Please consider, for example, my message of Wednesday 11 March, 19:46 "Re: >> Working Together - was The Plan For SAM.". I've stated my case, please >> state yours. > >Don't you think he has done that? I did not reply to that posting, but I think I had made myself clear in the past. [snip] >> say, are too complicated for use mere mortals to understand. Never once >> have you inspired my confidence in your leadership. > >Oh sad, I'm sure he is really heartbroken to hear that :) I am. He could have contributed a lot. [snip] -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 18 19:39:52 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: <22cc2223.351018c0@aol.com> Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:55:58 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Who? (Re: The Plan for SAM.) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 607 Lines: 24 In a message dated 18/03/98 02:08:23, you write: >In article <350ec63d.11723027@mail.enterprise.net>, Samsboss > writes >> Well >>tosh! If people want to use email for this sort of thing they have to >>accept what email software does. >> > >'Spose I sent you a letter, just a comment, didn't put my address at the >top or sign it, and said "well tosh! - if you want to use paper you have >to accept what paper does" > >You'd think I was a mindless, pointlessly agressive wanker, wouldn't >you? > > >-- >Ian Dalziel Emails have addresses built in Ian. Letters don't. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 18 19:39:52 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: <96059f23.351018c1@aol.com> Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:55:59 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: SimCoupe developement source code available Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1058 Lines: 29 In a message dated 18/03/98 10:51:47, you write: > >Hi Guys, > >Well, you managed to twist my arm :) I have put up a zip archive of the >DOS source for SimCoupe 0.76 (the latest developement release). You >can find it on the same page as the binary developement version. > >If you want to build the code 'as is' you will need a copy of the >gcc compiler utilities supplied in DJGPP v2 together with Gnu make >and binary utilities (also available as part of DJGPP). > >On a different note, the Gloucester chow is coming up, and as I now have >a car I will be driving down from Kettering. If anyone would like a lift >and can either get to Kettering, or is on the route, let me know, and >we can split the fuel costs. > >regards > >Allan May I suggest that you put a few copies of the DOS version of SimCoupe on disc and bring along to the show, I think there would be a few people interested in seeing it and possibly passing a few coins of the realm in your direction for a copy. Remember that there are lots of people without internet access. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 18 19:39:54 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:55:53 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Who? (Re: The Plan for SAM.) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 438 Lines: 19 In a message dated 17/03/98 10:17:12, you write: >Bob wrote: >> Apart from Colin McDonald, I appear to be the only person here with >> any experience of running a business. I have been doing so since 1982 - >does >> that tell you something? > >That it's boring and unchallenging? >That's the impression I got when we had to do the business crap at uni! > >Justin. > > Believe me, it is anything but boring and unchallenging. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 18 19:39:54 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:55:57 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Current Plans for the Assembler Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1483 Lines: 42 In a message dated 17/03/98 21:27:32, you write: > >I've started speccing it out. The assembler currently looks like this: > >C Assembler core -- spits out object code & symbol tables >C Linker core -- spits out resolved object code >C Packager core -- spits out packaged files, split whichever way you like >-- 32k pages, individual code fragments, you name it. > >VB 5.0 Application framework for the Win 32 version to provide a good >environment >to work in. > >Active X editor written in C++ to give that fancy "keywords in certain >colours" look to the source code when editing it. > >Active X Wizards written in VB5.0 which will allow people to build an >assembly language project framework from scratch. > >Help Files using HTML Help. Including SAM development help files (possibly >-- these may be optional extras, as I want this to be a general Z80 >assembler). > >--- > >If anyone has any ideas about how relocatable code fragments should work, >if at all, please let me know :) > >Simon > >ps. The 3 C cores will be available as source code; the rest of it will be >available as an installable package. If I get it all finished, it'll be >shareware (but with no restrictions, message pops up when you load it), >going for about 50 quid. SAM users get it for 10 quid. (Yes, there's a >discrepancy, but hey, I can sell this to embedded systems manufacturers if >I play it right...) Only one comment. Make sure it works with Win 3.11 with the WIN32 extensions. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 18 19:39:55 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:00:31 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Who? (Re: The Plan for SAM.) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1556 Lines: 50 In a message dated 18/03/98 12:50:05, you write: >Samsboss@Postmaster.co.uk (Samsboss) writes: > >> Okay, I've been reading, and knowing Bob is away today (happy birthday >> Bob) I thought I would just reply to this one. > >Is this supposed to prove a point or something? Only that he phoned me in the morning when I was still in bed :) > >Happy Birthday Bob. Thanks Lee. > >> > At 10:02 pm +0000 16/3/98, BrenchleyR wrote: >> > >I respect people who have proved themselves. Not only in >> > >programming but in business, and in life in general. I have taken >> > >time, much time, to explain why >> > >> > Why has business skill got anything to do with whether or not a decent >> > operating system could be written in Sam C? >> >> Excuse me Andrew, but business skills have everything to do with the >> future of SAM, unless of course you are happy to see it remain a small >> interest machine so you can exaggerate your own importance. > >Now I could be mistaken but the question Andrew asked was (As you can >see above ...) > > 'Why has business skill got anything to do with whether or not a > decent OS could be written in Sam C' A) everything. B) as I've said, who mentioned SAM C? > >NOT > > 'Why has business skill got anything to do with the future of the SAM' > >, which is the question you answered. In future please don't try to >imply someone asked a question other than the one they actually did :) I think the two questions are one and the same. Without a new ROM/DOS I do not see any future for SAM. > >Lee. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 18 19:39:56 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: <96059f25.35101a15@aol.com> Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:01:39 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Who? (Re: The Plan for SAM.) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 327 Lines: 20 In a message dated 18/03/98 17:45:22, you write: > >> If you wanted a reply you would put your address on it, if you didney want >> a reply there would be no need for it. > >what's the difference between bing crosby and walt disney? > >bing crosby sings >and walt disney > > >made me chuckle anyway > >dave Me to. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 18 20:51:34 1998 X-Lotus-FromDomain: POSTMASTER From: Samsboss@postmaster.co.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Message-ID: <802565CB.00715FEF.00@uks.postmaster.co.uk> Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 20:38:23 +0000 Subject: Re: Who? (Re: The Plan for SAM.) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 704 Lines: 27 | On Wed, 18 Mar 1998 00:32:33 +0000, Ian Dalziel said: | > 'Spose I sent you a letter, just a comment, didn't put my address at the | > top or sign it, and said "well tosh! - if you want to use paper you have | > to accept what paper does" | | > You'd think I was a mindless, pointlessly agressive wanker, wouldn't | > you? | | No he wouldn't, Ian, because he doesn't put his address on or sign it anyway. | | imc My address is on every email, it is put there by the software. My name is also on every email, the name I use for postings. -- Samsboss - The One And Only. Accept No Others. ___________________________________ To sign up for a free email account, visit http://www.postmaster.co.uk. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 18 23:21:54 1998 Message-Id: <9803182310.AA22553@mars.cableol.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Neil Maynard To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 23:12:29 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Who? (Re: The Plan for SAM.) In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 582 Lines: 21 On 18 Mar 98 at 14:00, BrenchleyR wrote: > > I think the two questions are one and the same. Without a new ROM/DOS I do not > see any future for SAM. > > -- > Bob. > I'm sorry Bob but if you really think that there is a future for the Sam other than the current 'hard-core' fans then you obviously have no business sense at all. I mean who the hell wants to buy a seven year old machine that Possibly has been upgraded ( ?? Z380) to 5 year ago standards ?? I think you are dreaming if you think that you will get new people to purchase a sam (or SamSon). Neil Maynard From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 18 23:21:54 1998 Message-Id: <9803182311.AA24721@mars.cableol.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Neil Maynard To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 23:13:32 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Who? (Re: The Plan for SAM.) In-Reply-To: <802565CB.00715FEF.00@uks.postmaster.co.uk> X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 452 Lines: 18 On 18 Mar 98 at 20:38, Samsboss@postmaster.co.uk wrote: > > My address is on every email, it is put there by the software. > My name is also on every email, the name I use for postings. > > -- > Samsboss - The One And Only. > Accept No Others. > ___________________________________ > To sign up for a free email account, visit http://www.postmaster.co.uk. > > > I think you'll find that your alias is on every e-mail not your name Neil Maynard From imc Wed Mar 18 23:52:15 1998 Subject: Re: Who? (Re: The Plan for SAM.) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 23:52:15 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "The Giggler" at Mar 18, 98 12:22:35 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 594 Lines: 17 On 18 Mar 1998 12:22:35 +0000, The Giggler said: > Ian Collier writes: > > And anyway, what is your software, so we can avoid it in future? > X-Mailer: Forte Free Agent 1.1/16.230 I have heard decent things said of that and would have expected better of it. Oddly, it doesn't seem to be what "samsboss" is using for his or her latest offerings. If you are going to change it samsboss you might as well change it for something that does the proper thing! imc This message is copyright and may not be reproduced unless properly attributed and in its original format. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 19 00:08:55 1998 From: arivyyrl@aqverpg.pb.hx (Nev Young) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Current Plans for the Assembler Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 23:52:34 GMT Organization: Message-ID: <35125889.13497067@mail.enterprise.net> References: <3.0.1.32.19980317161506.006c3a10@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980317161506.006c3a10@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1240 Lines: 46 On Tue, 17 Mar 1998 16:15:06 -0500, Simon Cooke wrote: > If anyone has any ideas about how relocatable code fragments should work, > if at all, please let me know :) > > Simon > A method used by Burroughs back in the 70's and 80's was to store the relocateable code on the backing store (disk or ram disk) in a format where every word of code was preceded with a control byte 0000 indicated that the code was loaded as is 8000H indicated that the code had to have the base load address added to it. We could use something similar on a Z80 system eg ORG 1000H LD A,(STORE) ADD A,C LD (STORE),A RET DEFB: STORE assembles to (IIRC) 3A 10 09 81 32 10 09 C9 00 If relocateable then it's 3A hh ll 81 32 hh ll C9 00 where hhll = 0009 + load base address If you store it as 003A 8000 4009 0081 0032 8000 4009 00C9 0000 where 80 means add MSB of load address and 40 means add lsb of load address then loading it at address 1234H would give 3A 12 3D 81 32 12 3D C9 00 I know this would slow down loading code as every word has to be examined and possibly subject to arithmetic but it means that all code will be fully relocateable as the final phase, normally done by the linker, is done at load time. hth Nev From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 19 00:08:58 1998 Message-Id: <199803190000.AAA23810@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 23:59:38 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Who? (Re: The Plan for SAM.) In-reply-to: <9803182310.AA22553@mars.cableol.net> References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 213 Lines: 8 > no business sense at all. I mean who the hell wants to buy a seven > year old machine that Possibly has been upgraded ( ?? Z380) to 5 year > ago standards ?? really? is the sam only seven years old? ;) dave From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 19 10:26:25 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 05:14:24 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Who? (Re: The Plan for SAM.) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1279 Lines: 41 In a message dated 18/03/98 23:11:29, you write: >On 18 Mar 98 at 14:00, BrenchleyR wrote: > >> >> I think the two questions are one and the same. Without a new ROM/DOS I do >not >> see any future for SAM. >> >> -- >> Bob. >> > >I'm sorry Bob but if you really think that there is a future for the >Sam other than the current 'hard-core' fans then you obviously have >no business sense at all. I mean who the hell wants to buy a seven >year old machine that Possibly has been upgraded ( ?? Z380) to 5 year >ago standards ?? Who wants to bay a 25 year old car, who still wants to buy records instead of CDs, who wants to watch black & white films. There are fans for everything, and there is certainly a big following for the Z80 (which may I remind you is still used by a vast number of people. It actually makes very good business sence to pick up those people that the PC market is leaving behind. > >I think you are dreaming if you think that you will get new people to >purchase a sam (or SamSon). Well SAM itself is still selling, ok it is small numbers but there again that is all that can be made without big investment. I'm confident that a SONofSAM will have a market, maybe not in the millions but certainly in the thousands. > > >Neil Maynard -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 19 10:32:53 1998 From: The Mad Goose Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:24:58 GMT+0 Subject: Pointless argument about heading Emails... X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-ID: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 800 Lines: 24 > On Wed, 18 Mar 1998 00:32:33 +0000, Ian Dalziel said: > > 'Spose I sent you a letter, just a comment, didn't put my address > > at the top or sign it, and said "well tosh! - if you want to use > > paper you have to accept what paper does" > > > You'd think I was a mindless, pointlessly agressive wanker, > > wouldn't you? > > No he wouldn't, Ian, because he doesn't put his address on or sign > it anyway. > > imc I really cannot believe this argument is going on. But just to add some spice to it, could we start to use proper subject headers please. At least then I'll be able to delete all of this crap without missing out on anything of interest... :-) Peace, Love, Kisses... Johnna Pig Teare JPOL: http://www.yi.com/home/TeareJohnna "I just want my future to live up to my past..." From imc Thu Mar 19 11:52:12 1998 Subject: Re: Current Plans for the Assembler To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 11:52:12 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <35125889.13497067@mail.enterprise.net> from "Nev Young" at Mar 18, 98 11:52:34 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 1479 Lines: 45 On Wed, 18 Mar 1998 23:52:34 GMT, Nev Young said: > We could use something similar on a Z80 system > ORG 1000H > LD A,(STORE) > ADD A,C > LD (STORE),A > RET > DEFB: STORE > assembles to (IIRC) > 3A 10 09 81 32 10 09 C9 00 You forgot that the Z08 is little-endian. :-) And STORE is at 1008 not 1009 in this example. But never mind... > If you store it as > 003A 8000 4009 0081 0032 8000 4009 00C9 0000 > where 80 means add MSB of load address > and 40 means add lsb of load address then loading it > at address 1234H would give > 3A 12 3D 81 32 12 3D C9 00 This is moderately wasteful (6 out of every 16 bits are not even used) and requires a special assembler. But at least it is simple and would work. Another idea is to add a list of fix-ups. If the object file is stored as CODE 3A 08 00 81 32 08 00 C9 00 FIXUP 00 01 00 05 00 00 then the loader would load the code straight in and then add the base address to the words at offsets 0001 and 0005 from the code start. Many of my programs are already like this (well almost, because the fix-up is supplied with the program and instead of adding the base address it adds the difference between the base address and the original base address, which makes it OK to fix up more than once). SAM PLAY and BIAS are two examples. These are created by assembling the program at two different addresses and then comparing the two images. Hisoft Devpac also uses fixups but I don't know how they created theirs. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 19 13:59:49 1998 Message-Id: <002501bd533d$8a1e6480$1314a8c2@sparky> From: SparkY To: sam-users Subject: Re: Who? (Re: The Plan for SAM.) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 13:46:08 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 936 Lines: 28 -----Original Message----- From: BrenchleyR >It actually makes very good business sence to pick up those people that the PC >market is leaving behind. Both of them? >I'm confident that a SONofSAM will have a market, maybe not in the millions >but certainly in the thousands. Now you really are dreaming Bob, I didn't think you had your head quite that far in the clouds. And by the time a SONofSAM gets released, anyone who is currently interested, probably won't be (or will be dead or something). Even if you get the SRAM card out before the year 2000, I can't see anyone actually paying money for it. I could of course mention the SAM_Clock, but I won't ;) Never mind that, what's happened to my Feb and March issues of Format? (Could someone do me a really big favour, and mail him this question for me, as he has me in his kill-file - which is just the best way to treat your customers, eh? ;) Gavin From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 19 16:50:54 1998 Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 16:40:23 +0000 (GMT) From: SL Harding X-Sender: sh5655@harrier To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: RE: Forgot to read. In-Reply-To: <19980317151859Z49541-22279+751@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 458 Lines: 17 > > How the hell do you get one of these funny '.dsk' files onto a real > > SAM disc? > > Easiest way is to use a PC and the SAMDISK utility which will write > the DSK file to a formatted Sam disc. > Dan. Thanks, nice to see it is much faster and more reliable than teledisk. Don't surpose the source (it tastes like bad C) is layin' about? I'd like to kill the questions it asks and move the information into the command line call if I may. C9 Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 19 17:18:26 1998 Illegal-Object: Syntax error in Message-Id: value found on sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no: Message-Id: ^-Extraneous program text From: Dan Doore Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 17:12:21 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: RE: Forgot to read. MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT X-Mailer: TFS Gateway /310000000/310102093/310102123/310460310/ X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Message-Id: <19980319171307Z49924-7296+242@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> Status: RO Content-Length: 511 Lines: 21 > Thanks, > nice to see it is much faster and more reliable than teledisk. The only bind is that it doesn't format the disk. > Don't surpose the source (it tastes like bad C) is layin' about? > I'd like to kill the questions it asks and move the information into the > command line call if I may. The prog was written (AFAIK) by Mat of ESI in about 20 mins in C, he may still have the source, wherever he is. Dan. Work: dan@bacg.com Shirk: dan@podboy.demon.co.uk VVeb: http://www.podboy.demon.co.uk/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 19 18:16:12 1998 Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 18:09:58 +0000 (GMT) From: D A Fulton To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: RE: Forgot to read. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 621 Lines: 16 > Thanks, > nice to see it is much faster and more reliable than teledisk. > This is really bizarre. Am I the only person who found teledisk to be *infinitely* better than Samdisk? My copy of Samdisk (downloaded from nvg) stops with an error 9 times out of ten, at random intervals. It took me 30 attempts before I got my copy of COMET onto the PC, and that was running it in a variety of ways from DOS 6.22 to in a window inside Win95 using various versions of QEMM. Does anyone have any ideas why this might be happening? I think the errors it tends to stop with are 5 and 21 (although I'm not certain). Dave. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 19 18:23:47 1998 X-Lotus-FromDomain: CASE TECHNOLOGY From: Justin_Skists@case.co.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Message-ID: <002565CC.00645C04.00@notes_a.case.co.uk> Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 18:17:29 +0000 Subject: SAMDISK (RE: Forgot to read.) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 351 Lines: 12 >> nice to see it is much faster and more reliable than teledisk. > >This is really bizarre. Am I the only person who found teledisk to be >*infinitely* better than Samdisk? I never did get SAMDISK to work in the first place. I haven't tried it on this computer yet, though. I had absolutely no problem with Teledisk or with PAK files.... Justin From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 19 20:47:47 1998 Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 18:29:45 +0000 (GMT) From: D A Fulton To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAMDISK (RE: Forgot to read.) In-Reply-To: <002565CC.00645C04.00@notes_a.case.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 363 Lines: 11 > I never did get SAMDISK to work in the first place. I haven't tried it > on this computer yet, though. Generally if you perservere it does eventually relent and copy the blasted thing. I'm not sure what is going wrong though, since I have no idea what the error codes mean. > > I had absolutely no problem with Teledisk or with PAK files.... Me neither. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 19 22:17:51 1998 Message-Id: <001a01bd537d$956232a0$0c14a8c2@sparky> From: SparkY To: sam-users Subject: Re: SAMDISK (RE: Forgot to read.) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 21:25:27 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 690 Lines: 20 -----Original Message----- From: Justin_Skists@case.co.uk >>> nice to see it is much faster and more reliable than teledisk. >> >>This is really bizarre. Am I the only person who found teledisk to be >>*infinitely* better than Samdisk? > >I never did get SAMDISK to work in the first place. I haven't tried it >on this computer yet, though. Weird! I haven't had a single problem with Samdisk yet and prefer it to Teledisk (which, for some strange reason, doesn't work on certain machines - at first I thought it was the speed of the machine, as I was trying it a few years ago on a University P75, but it works fine on my own P166, so I don't know... Gavin From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 20 08:29:01 1998 Illegal-Object: Syntax error in Message-Id: value found on sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no: Message-Id: ^-Extraneous program text From: Dan Doore Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 8:21:03 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: RE: SAMDISK (RE: Forgot to read.) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT X-Mailer: TFS Gateway /310000000/310102093/310102123/310460310/ X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Message-Id: <19980320082158Z49687-7296+454@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> Status: RO Content-Length: 610 Lines: 22 > > nice to see it is much faster and more reliable than teledisk. > > This is really bizarre. Am I the only person who found teledisk to be > *infinitely* better than Samdisk? Teledisk turns up it's toes on my Dimension 166 - I have to go and use an old 386 to unpack Teledisk images. Samdisk is very fickle, but that's due to it being quick and *very* dirty (I believe it uses gnarly BIOS calls to read the tracks). Of course if someone with a PC C compiler were to write another one which was less dirty... Dan. Work: dan@bacg.com Shirk: dan@podboy.demon.co.uk VVeb: http://www.podboy.demon.co.uk/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 20 08:58:43 1998 From: askillma Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 08:58:45 +0000 (GMT) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: RE: SAMDISK (RE: Forgot to read.) In-Reply-To: <19980320082158Z49687-7296+454@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1291 Lines: 28 Hi all, Looks like a good time to add my 2p worth... The problems with samdisk appear to be the use of BIOS calls to do the disk access. Whilst working on the floppy stuff for SimCoupe I experimented with the calls and wrote a disk->image converter using the access routines for SimCoupe. It works fine on my machine, but can be very fickle on some PCs. It would appear that some BIOSes just don't like 10 sector/track disks - I guess because certain OEMs (mentioning no names) only use 9/18 sector/track formats. Linux has no problems on the other hand, as it doesn't use the BIOS and has low level floppy drivers for all the popular floppy controllers. On a related subject, I finally downloaded Ian's samtools sources to my win 95 disk and tried to compile them with DJGPP - with some success. Watch this space Allan +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Allan Skillman | "There are five flavours of resons, the | | EDA Group | elementary particles of magic : up, down, | | Advanced RISC Machines | sideways, sex-appeal and peppermint." | | allan.skillman@arm.com | - Terry Pratchett (Lords and Ladies) | +------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ From imc Fri Mar 20 10:43:12 1998 Subject: Re: SAMDISK (RE: Forgot to read.) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:43:12 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <19980320082158Z49687-7296+454@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> from "Dan Doore" at Mar 20, 98 08:21:03 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 216 Lines: 7 On Fri, 20 Mar 1998 8:21:03 +0000, Dan Doore said: > Of course if someone with a PC C compiler were to write another one > which was less dirty... I've got a C compiler on my PC under Linux - will that do?... imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 20 14:48:27 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 09:35:15 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: SRAM CARD. Head Count Please. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1025 Lines: 22 At the current rate of progress there will be an opportunity to run a batch of boards for the first version of the SRAM card in late April. The card will be almost exactly like the one designed by Bruce Gordon for use during the SAM ROM development. It allows 32K of static RAM to be loaded and then switched in to replace the ROM. It also allows a 32K Eprom to be tested without the need to open SAM up. Intention is to produce a small board (half standard SAM size), which will sell at cost price to mailing list people with or without the SRAM chip. Full trade-in will then be available against any future version produced. In order to judge how many to commit to producing I would like some indication as to how many people will want one - I'm not worried at the moment about who will or will not be working on the ROM/DOS project, it is just a case that the more I make the cheaper per unit they become. Costs will be worked out at Maplin current cataloge prices for the parts + the cost of the board+p&p. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 20 16:07:09 1998 Message-Id: <199803201549.PAA12918@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 15:49:26 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: SAMDISK (RE: Forgot to read.) In-reply-to: <199803201043.KAA13865@chalca.comlab.ox.ac.uk> References: <19980320082158Z49687-7296+454@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> from "Dan Doore" at Mar 20, 98 08:21:03 am X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 331 Lines: 10 > I've got a C compiler on my PC under Linux - will that do?... er, for a linux version, yeh but you can access the disk without using the bios (ie, access the drive controller directly) - although i wouldn't recommend it to anyone. there's some sources around somewhere so if i have a bit of time maybe i'll have a go. dave From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 20 18:25:44 1998 X-Lotus-FromDomain: CASE TECHNOLOGY From: Justin_Skists@case.co.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Message-ID: <002565CD.00622A53.00@notes_a.case.co.uk> Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 17:53:26 +0000 Subject: Re: SRAM CARD. Head Count Please. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 334 Lines: 10 >The card will be almost exactly like the one designed by Bruce Gordon for use >during the SAM ROM development. It allows 32K of static RAM to be loaded and >then switched in to replace the ROM. It also allows a 32K Eprom to be tested >without the need to open SAM up. Is this the one with the schematic at the back of the TechMan? From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 20 18:25:45 1998 X-Lotus-FromDomain: POSTMASTER From: Samsboss@postmaster.co.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Message-ID: <802565CD.00631639.00@uks.postmaster.co.uk> Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 18:02:19 +0000 Subject: Re: SRAM CARD. Head Count Please. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 171 Lines: 8 Me please. -- Samsboss - The One And Only. Accept No Others. ___________________________________ To sign up for a free email account, visit http://www.postmaster.co.uk. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 20 18:36:03 1998 From: Matthew Craven Organization: UMIST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 18:29:10 BST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: SRAM CARD. Head Count Please. In-reply-to: <802565CD.00631639.00@uks.postmaster.co.uk> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-ID: <6A0C12D2D@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 117 Lines: 7 > Me please. > Samsboss - The One And Only. OK, me as well - I suppose, even though I don't know what it is. MJC. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 20 19:33:29 1998 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 08:11:16 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Ian Dalziel Subject: Re: Pointless argument about heading Emails... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Version 3.04 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 716 Lines: 18 In article , The Mad Goose writes >I really cannot believe this argument is going on. But just to add >some spice to it, could we start to use proper subject headers >please. At least then I'll be able to delete all of this crap without >missing out on anything of interest... > No doubt Bob will tell you AOL software doesn't allow him to change the header... I'm sorry, I had no idea this was going to be an argument, I thought I was just pointing out something (t)he(y) had missed. It does make me wonder, if a simple suggestion about using Email gets a heated rebuttal, what chance has anyone of making suggestions about Sam projects? -- Ian Dalziel From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Mar 21 00:46:45 1998 From: PGLOVER43 Message-ID: <479c9231.35130d4b@aol.com> Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 19:43:53 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: E-mail headings Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 168 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1074 Lines: 23 Sorry if I've joined this e-mail heading discussion a bit late. I haven't read the earlier e-mails, and I've just deleted a whole batch of what I presume are ramblings of little interest to me, judging by the subject names. I'm not too well up on the technical side of SAM, so I ignore a fair amount of the e-mails, although I'm sure they are of interest to others. I simply read the subject names and read those I think may be of interest. On the rare occasion I do add a few comments, I try and label the subject with a few relevant words, to indicate what my e-mail has to say. We sometimes get many re-labelled responses which may have deviated from the original subject by miles. I'm sure I'm not alone in ignoring some categories because of this. I'm all in favour of people giving pertinent labels to their e-mails, and maybe I'll pay more attention to them! I've probably missed some good discussions because of vague labelling. Despite being a much maligned AOL user, I hope I've managed to re-label my reply to give it an appropriate heading... Phil Glover From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Mar 21 02:55:20 1998 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 14:06:20 +0000 To: Sam Users From: Graham Goring Subject: Compilers... MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Trial Version 3.05 <8OHKkEUpoELRXgFKFsA4hwDBr8> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 562 Lines: 13 Um, whats the opinion of anyone on this list of that free compiler from Delorie (DJP or summat, I forget...)? Graham -- /====================================================\ +--------------+ | My proverb for this week: | |This Space For| | "The less bits, the less can go wrong... | | Hire - Ideal | | Unless you wobble something important at the back" | |For Weddings &| \==Graham Goring - graham@duketastrophy.demon.co.uk==/ | Bahmitzvas | My Website, coming to a server near you - SOON +--------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Mar 21 10:03:38 1998 From: Dean Liversidge To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 09:55:44 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Pointless argument about heading Emails... ( Long Email) In-reply-to: References: Message-Id: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 7512 Lines: 179 > Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 08:11:16 +0000 > To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no > From: Ian Dalziel > Subject: Re: Pointless argument about heading Emails... > Reply-to: sam-users@nvg.unit.no I will tell you all now, this is a bit of a long mail, so delete it now it your not interesed in my views about this mailing list. > >I really cannot believe this argument is going on. But just to add > >some spice to it, could we start to use proper subject headers > >please. At least then I'll be able to delete all of this crap without > >missing out on anything of interest... > > > No doubt Bob will tell you AOL software doesn't allow him to change > the header... > > I'm sorry, I had no idea this was going to be an argument, I thought > I was just pointing out something (t)he(y) had missed. But then again, it's always the same when ever anybody points out something that is generaly accepted by the majority of users and is helpfull or will make life easier for other people, then they take it as an insult, not as a freindly jesture or pointer. :-( It's the same with the time zones for reading messages, many people have pointed out about the incorrect time zones in messages ( me included), which make the mail reader display messages out of sync. For people like me who work too many hours in the day to be able to read the messages as they are sent, when you are trudging through 1-200 mesasges and reading the replies before the questions, it takes longer and get very frustrating, all for the sake of a few people that couldn't be bothered/don't know how to set their e-mail software correctly. Your mail is OK, +0000 hours / GMT > Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 08:11:16 +0000 > From: Ian Dalziel Simon, Not sure about this -0500 hours, Pacific time is it ???? > Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:57:40 -0500 > From: Simon Cooke > Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 22:55:16 -0500 (EST) > From: Simon Cooke Frode, I think this is right, not sure where your located Frode. > Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:59:54 +0100 > From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Mathew, erm, not 100% sure, fine in summer, maybe someone could help me out here > From: "Matthew Craven" > Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:12:59 BST David, where are you based now ??? > Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 18:17:17 -0800 > From: David Ledbury Now.......... Colin, WRONG, if you live in England that is > From: Gouranga > Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 16:03:39 EST Bob's, WRONG !, since when is Gloucester on European Time? > From: BrenchleyR > Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:11:45 EST Bill, WRONG, your in England aswell arnt you ??? > From: BillRitman > Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 05:53:22 EST hence all these replied messages are 1 hour early, so the replies come before the question. Just a sellection, Maybe it's the AOL users, or maybe it's the AOL mailer software that gives AOL users a bad name, I suppose it could be in the instructions on how to change it. I always found that if something doesnt do a job properly then either write one yourself or find one that does do it properly, It's quite easy to find a free E-mail package that works, I found Pegasus Mail, it's not perfect but it works for me. I'm sorry if this e-mail is a bit long, but i just wanted to justify my feeling on this problem. I hope i've given enough evedence for the people who can't take my views on face value. > It does make me wonder, if a simple suggestion about using Email > gets a heated rebuttal, what chance has anyone of making suggestions > about Sam projects? -- Ian Dalziel Very true, and iI am very disapointed with the lack of proper discusion be the majority of people on this list, each side not being able to accept the other sides views, i'm not meaning just Bob here. Silly arguments about anonymous names, I like to put my name in my e-mails, so people know who I am, but I respect anybody's decision to keep themselves anonymous if they wish, why do people have a problem with that. Why do people have to justify everything they say, as long as it's made known that that is their /view/ then so be it, if people have a different view, then thay can let their view be known, the other person doesn't have a right to say you have to use my view if they disagree with it, they should accept both sides as different versions. [My Views On the SAM] The way I see SAM is thats it's dead as a Marketable product, dont start saying i'm wrong, because its just my *view*. I dont that that the SAMSon realy has a future now, The PC market is too strong and getting stronger every day, no matter what the price is it's getting as nearly every home has at least one (i currently have 4, but thats because i'm working on a Novell Qualification at the moment). The main area for the SAM is Software not Hardware, with exeption for a Hard Drive, which i think a very good thing. The Hardware is quite capable of doing a lot of things, just look at what people have done on the Speccy, which was a lot less powerfull. But the programming base has died up. I beleive that the majority of users of SAM's now are people just palying with them, doing things on them that they always wanted to do on the Speccy but couldnt. Saying that, the hardware is very much lacking by todays standards, and people who usee computers need to run certain applications that the SAM just can't handle, yes it's got a paint program, yes it's got a word processor, but they just can't hack what people whant out of computers now. I keep saying to myself, that i'll get back onto the SAM, and get some stuff done on it, I started designing and building various things like LCD panel display, eprom programmer, external clock, clean nmi and reset - to stop disk corruption, I started to design a hard drive interface, dual serial controller, Parallel PC conector. Some of the projects were out of my league but what the hell. My original reason for buying a PC was to run Election PCB CAD software to build these projects, but that was 6 years ago, i found that i didnt have the productions ability to do what i wanted, even if any of them did work, which i wasn't sure about. Unfortunatly my SAM days are pretty much over as far as i can see, i wish they wern't but in reality, i cant see me doing much on the SAM, work and time just dont allow. SimCoupe could well be the future for me, it's an exellent package, I just wish I could get it to run in NT4, maybe i'll dump NT4. My future should really be getting into programming the PC, as that's what I see the future in Computers to be. Oh well, i'm loosing track now of what i wanted to say, so i'll leave it at that for now... I'm sorry to see you dumping the list Cookie, but since you are the only one trying to get some feedback from the list on positive projects on the SAM at the moment without many replies then I think i will be joining you, i'll give it a little longer, but my spare time could be spend much more productive than reading lots of the 'junk' e-mail that this this has currently. Goodbye my friends, -- Dean Liversidge From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Mar 21 12:12:59 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: <4a43901.3513ad94@aol.com> Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 07:07:46 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: SRAM CARD. Head Count Please. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 139 Lines: 12 In a message dated 20/03/98 18:28:44, you write: > >Is this the one with the schematic at the back of the TechMan? > > > Yes. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Mar 21 12:12:59 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: <72f49101.3513ad96@aol.com> Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 07:07:48 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Pointless argument about heading Emails... (short reply) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 672 Lines: 24 In a message dated 21/03/98 10:01:48, you write: > >Colin, WRONG, if you live in England that is >> From: Gouranga >> Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 16:03:39 EST > >Bob's, WRONG !, since when is Gloucester on European Time? >> From: BrenchleyR >> Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:11:45 EST > >Bill, WRONG, your in England aswell arnt you ??? >> From: BillRitman >> Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 05:53:22 EST > > All AOL email routes through their main US based computor system. Hence the EST (Eastern Standard Time) which is I think 5 hrs behind us in the UK. HTH. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Mar 21 12:12:59 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: <2c9a3201.3513ad99@aol.com> Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 07:07:51 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Pointless argument about heading Emails... (mid length reply) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 4384 Lines: 103 In a message dated 21/03/98 10:01:48, you write: >I will tell you all now, this is a bit of a long mail, so delete it >now it your not interesed in my views about this mailing list. > [snip bit answered in short reply] >Just a sellection, Maybe it's the AOL users, or maybe it's the AOL >mailer software that gives AOL users a bad name, I suppose it could >be in the instructions on how to change it. Outside of a few ignorant biggots I don't think you will find that AOL has a bad name. It is after all the largest on-line system of its type in the world and it is still growing fast. > >I always found that if something doesnt do a job properly then either >write one yourself or find one that does do it properly, It's quite >easy to find a free E-mail package that works, I found Pegasus Mail, >it's not perfect but it works for me. Out of preference I would use Agent (or at least Free Agent). My one, month long, encounter with Pegasus put me off. The problem is that you are using internet Email software which would not work on the AOL gateway, that requires its own software. Better in some ways, but not in others :) > > [snip] > >[My Views On the SAM] > >The way I see SAM is thats it's dead as a Marketable product, dont >start saying i'm wrong, because its just my *view*. Well of course SAM is 'almost' dead, certain key parts not being available mean that at most only a few hundred more machines could be made, and they get more expensive to make as time goes by. That is why we must work towards SAMSON. > >I dont that that the SAMSon realy has a future now, The PC market is >too strong and getting stronger every day, no matter what the price >is it's getting as nearly every home has at least one (i currently >have 4, but thats because i'm working on a Novell Qualification at >the moment). I think the last figures I saw showed around 40% of homes having a computer - but that included all the non-PC machines as well. The PC market may be strong, but there are still a large number of people to whome SAMSON could be the ideal machine. > >The main area for the SAM is Software not Hardware, with exeption for >a Hard Drive, which i think a very good thing. > >The Hardware is quite capable of doing a lot of things, just look at >what people have done on the Speccy, which was a lot less powerfull. >But the programming base has died up. I beleive that the majority of >users of SAM's now are people just palying with them, doing things on >them that they always wanted to do on the Speccy but couldnt. >Saying that, the hardware is very much lacking by todays standards, >and people who usee computers need to run certain applications that >the SAM just can't handle, yes it's got a paint program, yes it's got >a word processor, but they just can't hack what people whant out of >computers now. > >I keep saying to myself, that i'll get back onto the SAM, and get >some stuff done on it, I started designing and building various >things like LCD panel display, eprom programmer, external clock, >clean nmi and reset - to stop disk corruption, I started to design a >hard drive interface, dual serial controller, Parallel PC conector. >Some of the projects were out of my league but what the hell. My >original reason for buying a PC was to run Election PCB CAD software >to build these projects, but that was 6 years ago, i found that i >didnt have the productions ability to do what i wanted, even if any >of them did work, which i wasn't sure about. So, how far DID you get with the projects? Would be interested in at least talking to you about them. > >Unfortunatly my SAM days are pretty much over as far as i can see, i >wish they wern't but in reality, i cant see me doing much on the SAM, >work and time just dont allow. > >SimCoupe could well be the future for me, it's an exellent package, I >just wish I could get it to run in NT4, maybe i'll dump NT4. > >My future should really be getting into programming the PC, as that's >what I see the future in Computers to be. I hope not. The move to a single platform will hold back development in computers. We need more platforms. > >Oh well, i'm loosing track now of what i wanted to say, so i'll leave >it at that for now... > >I'm sorry to see you dumping the list Cookie, I think he is just moving and will be back soon. > >-- >Dean Liversidge -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Mar 21 12:13:01 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: <74dae501.3513ad95@aol.com> Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 07:07:47 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Pointless argument about heading Emails... Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 687 Lines: 23 In a message dated 20/03/98 20:56:20, you write: >No doubt Bob will tell you AOL software doesn't allow him to change the >header... No, I could change all the headers if I wanted to, but I have got better things to do with my time. > >I'm sorry, I had no idea this was going to be an argument, I thought I >was just pointing out something (t)he(y) had missed. > >It does make me wonder, if a simple suggestion about using Email gets a >heated rebuttal, what chance has anyone of making suggestions about Sam >projects? I haven't seen any 'heated' rebuttals, just ones saying that if the software doesn't do it, I for one am not going to do it manually. >-- >Ian Dalziel -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Mar 21 14:18:46 1998 From: Matthew Craven Organization: UMIST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 14:13:57 BST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: A reply to Pointless argument about heading Emails... ( Long Ema References: In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-ID: <1A5BE6193D@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 691 Lines: 15 > Mathew, erm, not 100% sure, fine in summer, maybe someone could help > me out here > > From: "Matthew Craven" > > Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:12:59 BST > I always found that if something doesnt do a job properly then either > write one yourself or find one that does do it properly, It's quite > easy to find a free E-mail package that works, I found Pegasus Mail, > it's not perfect but it works for me. Yes - I use Pegasus Mail too - and there is no way that I can see to change the date in the email, at least with the interface that I am given, PMAIL dates the message when it sends it out and I have nothing to do with it. MJC. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Mar 21 16:20:05 1998 From: Gouranga Message-ID: <6363c3c7.3513e7a3@aol.com> Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 11:15:29 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Pointless argument about heading Emails... (short reply) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 168 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 228 Lines: 7 > >Colin, WRONG, if you live in England that is > >> From: Gouranga > >> Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 16:03:39 EST I've *lived* in Scotland, Wales and the US, but never ever ever in England. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Mar 21 17:36:38 1998 X-Lotus-FromDomain: POSTMASTER From: Samsboss@postmaster.co.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Message-ID: <802565CE.0060A030.00@uks.postmaster.co.uk> Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 17:35:26 +0000 Subject: Re: Pointless argument about heading Emails... (short reply) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 453 Lines: 19 | > >Colin, WRONG, if you live in England that is | > >> From: Gouranga | > >> Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 16:03:39 EST | | | I've *lived* in Scotland, Wales and the US, but never ever ever in England. You meens you is dead when you come to England ;-)) -- Samsboss - The One And Only. Accept No Others. ___________________________________ To sign up for a free email account, visit http://www.postmaster.co.uk. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Mar 21 18:45:28 1998 Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 13:40:21 -0500 From: Gordon Wallis <101762.2062@compuserve.com> Subject: Games, and stuff to look at... To: "INTERNET:sam-users@nvg.unit.no" Message-ID: <199803211340_MC2-378D-304C@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1290 Lines: 24 I don't know how many of you have access to the internet (ie. browsing, not just email), but I heartily suggest you search for MSX stuff. It's a 'little known' computer (except in Japan and on the continent, where it's still going strong), with graphical capabilities much like the Sam. Most of what I've seen (games-wise) could be done in Sam's MODE 2, as the scrolling is very much Spectrum-style, but it all so much more colourful. Why don't some of you budding programmers try out sideways-scrolling Mode 2 shooters, just as a little exercise? Was Sphera really so bad that it's put people off shoot-'em-ups? (Parallax, maybe, but I though Sphera was a more than passable first attempt). Alternatively, there's a wealth of puzzley type games - Lode Runner and Bubble Bobble-ish some of them (hint hint) - which are worth a look. If the MSX can survive this long, why not Sam? (Maybe because Sam doesn't have support from the likes of Konami, doesn't have groovy plug in stuff like Sound Cards...Oops...yes it does...) It seems to me that, although many things are discussed on this mailing list, noone actually does much. How about Format and/or Persona running a compo or something? Likelihood: Doubtful. Motivation: Unknown. Ok people, I'm done. Rip me ta shreds, why don't ya? From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Mar 21 20:00:24 1998 From: Dean Liversidge To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 19:27:23 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Pointless argument about heading Emails... (short reply) In-reply-to: <6363c3c7.3513e7a3@aol.com> Message-Id: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 346 Lines: 14 > From: Gouranga > > I've *lived* in Scotland, Wales and the US, but never ever ever in > England. Ooops!, Sorry, maybe I should have said Great Britain, or UK, at least you in GMT time zone. BTW, I do like Scotland, would like to live there but it's getting a job and house and everything. -- Dean Liversidge From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Mar 21 20:00:26 1998 From: Dean Liversidge To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 19:27:23 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: A reply to Pointless argument about heading Emails... ( Long References: In-reply-to: <1A5BE6193D@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> Message-Id: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1391 Lines: 35 > From: "Matthew Craven" > > I always found that if something doesnt do a job properly then either > > write one yourself or find one that does do it properly, It's quite > > easy to find a free E-mail package that works, I found Pegasus Mail, > > it's not perfect but it works for me. > > Yes - I use Pegasus Mail too - and there is no way that I can see to > change the date in the email, at least with the interface that I am > given, PMAIL dates the message when it sends it out and I have > nothing to do with it. > > MJC. Since your using Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52), and I'm using v2.55, i think the options for changing are slightly different, but there should be an 'Advanced Setting' Menu option which has a 'Time Zone' setting to enter the required info ..abstract from help file: SMTP time zone: Again, this field is only meaningful if you are not connected to a NetWare server. You should enter your time zone in here expressed as a plus or minus offset from Greenwich Mean Time, and Pegasus Mail will then use it in the Date field of messages you send. Example: New Zealand is 11 hours ahead of GMT, so the proper value for this field would be +1100. It may be that the Server you are using is suppying your time details, I dont know too much about Unix yet ( assuming Unix where you are???? ) -- Dean Liversidge From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Mar 21 20:00:26 1998 From: Dean Liversidge To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 19:46:18 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Pointless argument about heading Emails... (short reply) In-reply-to: <72f49101.3513ad96@aol.com> Message-Id: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1502 Lines: 48 > From: BrenchleyR > Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 07:07:48 EST > In a message dated 21/03/98 10:01:48, you write: > > > >Bob's, WRONG !, since when is Gloucester on European Time? > >> From: BrenchleyR > >> Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:11:45 EST > > > > All AOL email routes through their main US based computor system. > Hence the EST (Eastern Standard Time) which is I think 5 hrs behind > us in the UK. > > HTH. > > -- > Bob. That may be so, and you are correct, Eastern it is and -0500 it is, but it is not the mail gateway that supplies the time of the message, it is your mail software that supplies the 'Date' line. The mail gateways that are used to carry the mail will all stamp the mail message with a 'Received: ' line with a date and time, along with the server name. As you can see from your headers: Received: from sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no ([129.241.210.67]) by punt-1.mail.demon.net id aa1128556; 21 Mar 98 12:12 GMT Received: by sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no id <49554-7296>; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 13:08:25 +0100 Received: from BrenchleyR@aol.com by imo19.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id UAUSa07549 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 07:07:48 -0500 (EST) From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: <72f49101.3513ad96@aol.com> Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 07:07:48 EST You are sure that your 'Regional Setting' are set correctly in 'Control Panel' arn't you Bob??? ;-) -- Dean Liversidge From imc Sat Mar 21 20:22:19 1998 Subject: Re: Pointless argument about heading Emails... (short reply) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 20:22:19 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Dean Liversidge" at Mar 21, 98 07:46:18 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 1391 Lines: 30 On Sat, 21 Mar 1998 19:46:18 +0000, Dean Liversidge said: > That may be so, and you are correct, Eastern it is and -0500 it is, > but it is not the mail gateway that supplies the time of the message, > it is your mail software that supplies the 'Date' line. > As you can see from your headers: > Received: from sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no ([129.241.210.67]) > by punt-1.mail.demon.net id aa1128556; 21 Mar 98 12:12 GMT > Received: by sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no id <49554-7296>; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 > 13:08:25 +0100 > Received: from BrenchleyR@aol.com > by imo19.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id UAUSa07549 > for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 07:07:48 -0500 (EST) > From: BrenchleyR > Message-ID: <72f49101.3513ad96@aol.com> > Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 07:07:48 EST We can see from these headers that sabre-wulf received it at 13:08 MET (equals 12:08 GMT) and that aol received it at 07:07:48 EST (equals 12.07 GMT). This makes sense. What doesn't make sense is your allegation that Bob got up at 7am especially to compose this message which would only get sent at 12pm. On the contrary, I hate to agree with Bob but the date line on this is correct. It might be better if it said 12:07:48 GMT instead of 07:07:48 EST, but both are correct and I suspect this is a feature of AOL being, as its name suggests, an on-line service operated from America. imc From imc Sat Mar 21 20:35:23 1998 Subject: Re: A reply to Pointless argument about heading Emails... ( Long Ema To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 20:35:23 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1A5BE6193D@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> from "Matthew Craven" at Mar 21, 98 02:13:57 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 398 Lines: 10 On Sat, 21 Mar 1998 14:13:57 BST, Matthew Craven said: > Yes - I use Pegasus Mail too - and there is no way that I can see to > change the date in the email, at least with the interface that I am > given, PMAIL dates the message when it sends it out and I have > nothing to do with it. The machine fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk (whatever it is) appears to think its timezone is BST for some reason. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Mar 21 20:41:15 1998 From: Maria Rookyard To: SAM Users Mailing List Cc: Simon Lee Cooke Subject: Time Zones Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 19:04:03 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1524 Lines: 51 Hi folks, Just thought that while Simon's no longer on the list to explain himself, I'd set the record straight on a few things. Firstly - Dean, No it's not Pacific time. Washington D.C. (where Simon now lives and works) is on /Eastern/ Standard Time; which is indeed 5 hours behind the U.K. Therefore I think it's a perfectly reasonable setting, don't you? Simon, Not sure about this -0500 hours, Pacific time is it ???? > Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:57:40 -0500 > From: Simon Cooke > Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 22:55:16 -0500 (EST) > From: Simon Cooke Secondly - Simon has only temporarily unsubbed from the list, as I believe he mentioned the other day. The time he saves not reading emails will be devoted to working on TCP/IP stacks and SMLU-C. If, for any reason, anyone has a message for him that they'd rather send to the mailing list than to him personally; stick it up and I'll forward it. Thirdly - after weighing up various job offers, Simon has decided that for the time being at least he'll be better off professionally and financially if he stays in Washington. He currently plans to review the situation towards the end of this year. Remember - you heard it here first :) Maria. x ============================================ "I'm not getting het up - I'm just being emphatic" Phil Harding ============================================ From imc Sat Mar 21 20:48:47 1998 Subject: Re: Pointless argument about heading Emails... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 20:48:47 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <2c9a3201.3513ad99@aol.com> from "BrenchleyR" at Mar 21, 98 07:07:51 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 1960 Lines: 42 On Sat, 21 Mar 1998 07:07:51 EST, BrenchleyR said: > Outside of a few ignorant biggots I don't think you will find that AOL has a > bad name. I think you will find that most people (whether "ignorant bigots" or not) who were on the net when AOL started up have a certain amount of disrespect for AOL. AOL launched thousands of new users on the net without teaching them a blind bit of netiquette[1] and I believe the reputation it earned back then was well deserved. Things may (or may not) have changed since then, but people have long memories. Also, AOL software is not the best in the world, and since it is an online service you can't junk it and use your own. [1] This wasn't a new thing - the universities did it every September, but not in such numbers. > It is after all the largest on-line system of its type in the world > and it is still growing fast. That is perhaps because it is the _only_ "on-line system of its type"! Maybe compuserve is somewhat similar, but I don't know how large compuserve is. > >I dont that that the SAMSon realy has a future now, The PC market is > >too strong and getting stronger every day, no matter what the price > >is it's getting as nearly every home has at least one > I think the last figures I saw showed around 40% of homes having a computer - > but that included all the non-PC machines as well. I think this figure is somewhat irrelevant. You are hardly going to sell any Sam(son)s to people who have already got computers - whatever kind they are - and those that haven't perhaps haven't got them because they aren't interested. Your recent lament about the lack of interest on comp.sys.sinclair seems to prove this point. > The PC market may be > strong, but there are still a large number of people to whome SAMSON could be > the ideal machine. You'll need an advertising miracle to get to these people, I should think. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Mar 21 21:06:47 1998 Message-ID: <9KX$ZtBLaCF1Ewjr@duketastrophy.demon.co.uk> Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 20:43:55 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Graham Goring Subject: Re: A reply to Pointless argument about heading Emails... ( Long Ema In-Reply-To: <199803212035.UAA18306@chalca.comlab.ox.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Trial Version 3.05 <8OHKkEUpoELRXgFKFsA4hwDBr8> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1061 Lines: 24 In message <199803212035.UAA18306@chalca.comlab.ox.ac.uk>, Ian Collier writes >On Sat, 21 Mar 1998 14:13:57 BST, Matthew Craven said: >> Yes - I use Pegasus Mail too - and there is no way that I can see to >> change the date in the email, at least with the interface that I am >> given, PMAIL dates the message when it sends it out and I have >> nothing to do with it. > >The machine fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk (whatever it is) appears to think its >timezone is BST for some reason. Outta' curiosity, what is it about incorrectly set computer clocks that gets on your tits so very much? Graham -- /====================================================\ +--------------+ | My proverb for this week: | |This Space For| | "The less bits, the less can go wrong... | | Hire - Ideal | | Unless you wobble something important at the back" | |For Weddings &| \==Graham Goring - graham@duketastrophy.demon.co.uk==/ | Bahmitzvas | My Website, coming to a server near you - SOON +--------------+ From imc Sat Mar 21 21:16:05 1998 Subject: Re: A reply to Pointless argument about heading Emails... ( Long Ema To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 21:16:05 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <9KX$ZtBLaCF1Ewjr@duketastrophy.demon.co.uk> from "Graham Goring" at Mar 21, 98 08:43:55 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 424 Lines: 12 I wrote, merely in explanation of the Date header mystery, that: > >The machine fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk (whatever it is) appears to think its > >timezone is BST for some reason. On Sat, 21 Mar 1998 20:43:55 +0000, Graham Goring said: > Outta' curiosity, what is it about incorrectly set computer clocks that > gets on your tits so very much? If you had read the original article in this thread from Dean you would know. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Mar 21 23:35:05 1998 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 19:43:55 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Ian Dalziel Subject: Sam's future, or otherwise In-Reply-To: <2c9a3201.3513ad99@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Mailer: Turnpike Version 3.04 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1072 Lines: 32 In article <2c9a3201.3513ad99@aol.com>, BrenchleyR writes >In a message dated 21/03/98 10:01:48, you write: *X$!? >>I dont that that the SAMSon realy has a future now, >there are still a large number of people to whome SAMSON could be >the ideal machine. Just to prove I'm not looking for arguments, I agree entirely. We can't even plug Sam as cheap any more - you can pick up a 286/386 for less. But it is compact, convenient and easy to use, so long as you don't need to do what it can't do. (and hardly anyone does - NEED to, that is) Probably won't ever be more than a cult or niche market, but what's wrong with that? And what's the point of destructive arguments? Can't we stay constructive, and supportive, of anyone - Format, Fred, Simon, Persona or whoever - who is trying to do SOMETHING? They don't have to be mutually exclusive. I admit I'm not parting with any more brass until I see a clock, or an SRAM, or a bloody Kaboom!, that makes a clunk when you put it on a table, but once they're solid, I'll buy 'em. -- Ian Dalziel From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Mar 21 23:35:05 1998 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 23:13:43 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Graham Goring Subject: Re: A reply to Pointless argument about heading Emails... ( Long Ema In-Reply-To: <199803212116.VAA18412@chalca.comlab.ox.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Trial Version 3.05 <8OHKkEUpoELRXgFKFsA4hwDBr8> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1089 Lines: 27 In message <199803212116.VAA18412@chalca.comlab.ox.ac.uk>, Ian Collier writes >I wrote, merely in explanation of the Date header mystery, that: > >> >The machine fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk (whatever it is) appears to think its >> >timezone is BST for some reason. > >On Sat, 21 Mar 1998 20:43:55 +0000, Graham Goring said: >> Outta' curiosity, what is it about incorrectly set computer clocks that >> gets on your tits so very much? > >If you had read the original article in this thread from Dean you would know. Pah! Read samusers? You gotta be kidding! Howzabout paraphrasing for us members of the MTV generation? :) Graham -- /====================================================\ +--------------+ | My proverb for this week: | |This Space For| | "The less bits, the less can go wrong... | | Hire - Ideal | | Unless you wobble something important at the back" | |For Weddings &| \==Graham Goring - graham@duketastrophy.demon.co.uk==/ | Bahmitzvas | My Website, coming to a server near you - SOON +--------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Mar 22 01:02:53 1998 From: PGLOVER43 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 19:59:04 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Slagging off AOL... Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 168 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 527 Lines: 16 Why does AOL merit contempt from fellow SAM users? My first introduction to the Internet was via AOL and it proved to be a painless, even easy, way into the subject. The on-line AOL stuff is quickly accessed, and the web sites are also good. AOL have been a great help to me in my Internet flounderings, and the help service seems very good. Also, it's very easy to run Netscape 4 from AOL. I am happy with AOL I shall stick with AOL (I hope for a thank-you or cheque from Jonathan Bulkeley,) All tjhe bets, Phil Glover. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Mar 22 02:20:09 1998 Message-Id: <199803220216.CAA18818@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Paul Walker Organization: very little To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 02:15:36 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Pointless argument about heading Emails... (mid length reply In-reply-to: <2c9a3201.3513ad99@aol.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1469 Lines: 34 > bad name. It is after all the largest on-line system of its type in the world > and it is still growing fast. That's because it keeps sending people those f*&^*ng CDs. I've now got over 1000 hours "free" with them that I haven't touched; you'd have thought they'd take the hint by now. > Out of preference I would use Agent (or at least Free Agent). My one, month > long, encounter with Pegasus put me off. The problem is that you are using > internet Email software which would not work on the AOL gateway, that requires Agent's a good newsreader, but IMO can't hold a candle to Pegasus for email. Each to their own, though. ;) > So, how far DID you get with the projects? Would be interested in at least > talking to you about them. Bob, just a minor point - can you please stop quoting quite so much? Just enough to remind people what the thread's about is plenty, and saves us having to page through it. > I hope not. The move to a single platform will hold back development in > computers. We need more platforms. There are lots of platforms. A test in PCW (not scientific, but WTH) showed that a Mesh system (DEC Alpha) was only slightly behind a dual PII system. The Mesh had *one* processor - give it two or more, and it'd kick the P2 out the window. Paul -- ---- MicroSoft Windows - where do you want to crash today? ---- FidoNet: 2:254/60.11 2:442/103.13 ---> http://www.trak-one.co.uk/foti <--- From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Mar 22 12:57:00 1998 From: Dean Liversidge To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 09:09:39 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Pointless argument about heading Emails... (mid length reply In-reply-to: <199803220216.CAA18818@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> References: <2c9a3201.3513ad99@aol.com> Message-Id: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1338 Lines: 34 > From: "Paul Walker" > > Out of preference I would use Agent (or at least Free Agent). My one, month > > long, encounter with Pegasus put me off. The problem is that you are using > > internet Email software which would not work on the AOL gateway, that requires > > Agent's a good newsreader, but IMO can't hold a candle to Pegasus > for email. Each to their own, though. ;) I also use Free Agent as my Newsreader, i havn't found one to better it yet, but i was unaware of it's ability to handle incomming e-mail from a mailing list, can anyone enlighten me???? > > Bob, just a minor point - can you please stop quoting quite so much? > Just enough to remind people what the thread's about is plenty, and > saves us having to page through it. Oh, yes, one thing i forgot ;-) Is it just me or does everyboby get the messages quoted by the AOL e-mail software that is not properly formated??? I can't seem to find the ones i was thinking of, so maybe i imagined it, but it seemed as though it reformated the paragraphs and left the quatation marks '>' in the text ??, but onlt did it on certain paragraphs, not sure now, so just forget it. Anyway, all i wanted to do was to make peoples life easier, next time i think i'll keep my views to myself, like i usually do. -- Dean Liversidge From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Mar 22 12:57:00 1998 From: Dean Liversidge To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 09:09:39 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Slagging off AOL... In-reply-to: Message-Id: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1127 Lines: 35 > From: PGLOVER43 > Why does AOL merit contempt from fellow SAM users? I did not show any contempt for AOL, users, just pointed out a feeling about AOL users shown by a lot of people on the net, which I noticed from many newsgroup posting over time, it is not restricted to SAM users. I cannot say all AOL users are the same as they are not, that would be unfair, but what a lot of poeple do see about AOL users more that many other service provider users, is that they do not care about other people, and have no interest in 'netiquette'. > The on-line AOL stuff is quickly accessed, and the web sites are > also good. AOL have been a great help to me in my Internet > flounderings, and the help service seems very good. Also, it's very > easy to run Netscape 4 from AOL. If Netscape will run on the connection, then i am sure that all proper net software will, including different e-mail software. > I am happy with AOL > > I shall stick with AOL Then thats good, stick with it. But your time is still wrong, unless anyone can prove to me the contrary. -- Dean Liversidge From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Mar 22 12:57:01 1998 From: Dean Liversidge To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 09:09:39 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Time Zones In-reply-to: Message-Id: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1128 Lines: 29 > From: "Maria Rookyard" > > Just thought that while Simon's no longer on the list to explain > himself, I'd set the record straight on a few things. > > > Firstly - Dean, No it's not Pacific time. Washington D.C. (where > Simon now lives and works) is on /Eastern/ Standard Time; which is > indeed 5 hours behind the U.K. Therefore I think it's a perfectly > reasonable setting, don't you? > Yep, I sure do, thats why i put him at the top of the list with the ones i thought were correct, but not 100% sure of. Thanks for letting me know. > Secondly - Simon has only temporarily unsubbed from the list, as I > believe he mentioned the other day. The time he saves not reading > emails will be devoted to working on TCP/IP stacks and SMLU-C. If, > for any reason, anyone has a message for him that they'd rather send > to the mailing list than to him personally; stick it up and I'll > forward it. Ah, that's good, but no I dont remember him mentioning it, but i have had to plough through about 300 messages before i actually posted anything recently. -- Dean Liversidge From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Mar 22 12:57:01 1998 From: Dean Liversidge To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 12:45:03 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Pointless argument about heading Emails... (apolgy (ish) ) In-reply-to: <199803212022.UAA18261@chalca.comlab.ox.ac.uk> References: from "Dean Liversidge" at Mar 21, 98 07:46:18 pm Message-Id: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2634 Lines: 63 > From: Ian Collier > On Sat, 21 Mar 1998 19:46:18 +0000, Dean Liversidge said: > > That may be so, and you are correct, Eastern it is and -0500 it is, > > but it is not the mail gateway that supplies the time of the message, > > it is your mail software that supplies the 'Date' line. > > > As you can see from your headers: > > > Received: from sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no ([129.241.210.67]) > > by punt-1.mail.demon.net id aa1128556; 21 Mar 98 12:12 GMT > > Received: by sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no id <49554-7296>; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 > > 13:08:25 +0100 > > Received: from BrenchleyR@aol.com > > by imo19.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id UAUSa07549 > > for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 07:07:48 -0500 (EST) > > From: BrenchleyR > > Message-ID: <72f49101.3513ad96@aol.com> > > Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 07:07:48 EST > > We can see from these headers that sabre-wulf received it at 13:08 > MET (equals 12:08 GMT) and that aol received it at 07:07:48 EST > (equals 12.07 GMT). This makes sense. Hmm, yes I noticed that when i posted, so i've been investigating further, and it seems a small apology is in order, to the effect of the messages they are posting are not out of sync, it looks like my mailer, Pegasus, cannot actually display them correctly. I tested Pegasus with 31 messages with all the time stamps it should handle according to RFC822, and it failed on all the 3 character North American codes, EST,EDT,CST,CDT,MST,MDT, but works fine on UT, GMT, and +/-hhmm format. This means i'll have to get in touch with David Harris, for more info. BUT...... This does not mean that all the AOL mail users here so far are correct, because there messages still include the 'Date: ' header feild which shows the message posting Date as though it was posted in the wrong country, It should read either, +0000, UT, or GMT, or omited showing local time. So the argument still stands, but it means that it's my mailer software that is showing the messages out of order. > What doesn't make sense is your allegation that Bob got up at 7am > especially to compose this message which would only get sent at > 12pm. On the contrary, I hate to agree with Bob but the date line > on this is correct. It might be better if it said 12:07:48 GMT > instead of 07:07:48 EST, but both are correct and I suspect this is > a feature of AOL being, as its name suggests, an on-line service > operated from America. I never mentioned that anybody posted at 7am. No it is not correct, as I mentioned the 'Received:' lines are AOL's teritory. -- Dean Liversidge From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Mar 22 19:54:55 1998 From: Matthew Craven Organization: UMIST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 19:42:58 BST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Wow!! A meaningful title. References: <1A5BE6193D@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-ID: <37D7876AEC@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 440 Lines: 12 > Since your using Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52), and I'm using > v2.55, i think the options for changing are slightly different, but > there should be an 'Advanced Setting' Menu option which has a 'Time > Zone' setting to enter the required info > > It may be that the Server you are using is suppying your time > details, I dont know too much about Unix yet ( assuming Unix where > you are???? ) Unix - no - Windows NT 4. MJC. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Mar 22 20:06:46 1998 From: Matthew Craven Organization: UMIST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 19:55:31 BST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Pointless argument about heading Emails... (apolgy (ish) ) References: <199803212022.UAA18261@chalca.comlab.ox.ac.uk> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-ID: <380D1906A2@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 497 Lines: 11 > This does not mean that all the AOL mail users here so far are > correct, because there messages still include the 'Date: ' header > feild which shows the message posting Date as though it was posted in > the wrong country, It should read either, +0000, UT, or GMT, or > omited showing local time. > So the argument still stands, but it means that it's my mailer > software that is showing the messages out of order. Does it really matter that much - why are you bothered about it? MJC. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Mar 22 20:20:03 1998 From: BillRitman Message-ID: Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 15:07:58 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Who? (Re: The Plan for SAM.) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 178 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1217 Lines: 44 In a message dated 19/03/98 16:27:20, you write: > > -----Original Message----- > From: BrenchleyR > > > >It actually makes very good business sence to pick up those people that the > PC > >market is leaving behind. > > > Both of them? > > >I'm confident that a SONofSAM will have a market, maybe not in the millions > >but certainly in the thousands. > > > Now you really are dreaming Bob, I didn't think you had your head quite that > far in the clouds. And by the time a SONofSAM gets released, anyone who is > currently interested, probably won't be (or will be dead or something)....... Why is it that some people are so negative? I would have thought that we all, as Sam users, would like to see our machines improved and expanded. If people don't like their Sams anymore, why don't they sell them and go play with a machine they do like. >....... what's happened to my Feb and March issues of > Format? (Could someone do me a really big favour, and mail him this question > for me, as he has me in his kill-file - which is just the best way to treat > your customers, eh? ;) Have you tried complaining to your local post office? > > Gavin > Bill. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Mar 22 20:20:03 1998 From: BillRitman Message-ID: Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 15:11:08 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Slagging off AOL... Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 178 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 253 Lines: 15 In a message dated 22/03/98 00:59:56, you write: > I am happy with AOL > > I shall stick with AOL > > (I hope for a thank-you or cheque from Jonathan Bulkeley,) > > All tjhe bets, Phil Glover. > Me To :) to all of what Phil said. Bill. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Mar 22 20:49:03 1998 From: arivyyrl@aqverpg.pb.hx (Nev Young) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Pointless argument about heading Emails... (mid length reply Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 20:43:18 GMT Organization: Message-ID: <35157792.686983@mail.enterprise.net> References: <2c9a3201.3513ad99@aol.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 899 Lines: 22 On Sun, 22 Mar 1998 09:09:39 +0000, "Dean Liversidge" wrote: > > From: "Paul Walker" > > > Out of preference I would use Agent (or at least Free Agent). My one, month > > > long, encounter with Pegasus put me off. The problem is that you are using > > > internet Email software which would not work on the AOL gateway, that requires > > > > Agent's a good newsreader, but IMO can't hold a candle to Pegasus > > for email. Each to their own, though. ;) > > I also use Free Agent as my Newsreader, i havn't found one to better > it yet, but i was unaware of it's ability to handle incomming e-mail > from a mailing list, can anyone enlighten me???? > You need the full version of agent to handle email /properly/ . It is well worth the few quid you have to pay for it and is available as a download. I use it for both email & news. hth From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Mar 22 21:06:39 1998 From: arivyyrl@aqverpg.pb.hx (Nev Young) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Slagging off AOL... Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 20:48:46 GMT Organization: Message-ID: <35167869.901827@mail.enterprise.net> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1037 Lines: 30 On Sat, 21 Mar 1998 19:59:04 EST, PGLOVER43 wrote: > Why does AOL merit contempt from fellow SAM users? > > My first introduction to the Internet was via AOL and it proved to be a > painless, even easy, way into the subject. > > The on-line AOL stuff is quickly accessed, and the web sites are also good. > AOL have been a great help to me in my Internet flounderings, and the help > service seems very good. Also, it's very easy to run Netscape 4 from AOL. > > I am happy with AOL > > I shall stick with AOL > I was happy with a push bike until I got a car. My point being AOL is your first and only ISP. I thought Compu$pend[1] was OK until I tried another service and realised what crap I had been putting up with. YMMV. [1] I am given to understand that Compu$pend is a lot better now than it used to be. But my ISP is reputed to be the fastest in the UK and I can well beleive it. (pity it has a crap news feed though) -- Nev - still at nevilley @ ndirect . co . uk but fighting the hordes of spam. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Mar 22 21:56:50 1998 Message-Id: <199803222141.WAA24582@mailserv.caiw.nl> From: Robert van der Veeke To: sam-users Subject: Re: Who? (Re: The Plan for SAM.) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 22:40:19 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 724 Lines: 23 > Van: BillRitman > Aan: sam-users@nvg.unit.no > Onderwerp: Re: Who? (Re: The Plan for SAM.) > Datum: Sunday, March 22, 1998 9:07 > Why is it that some people are so negative? I would have thought that we all, > as Sam users, would like to see our machines improved and expanded. If people > don't like their Sams anymore, why don't they sell them and go play with a > machine they do like. This is sick, pinch me in the arm to say that this is not true, that the above writing was only a bad dream and that when I open my eyes it has gone away. Bill why are you still here?????? -- Robert van der Veeke, aka RJV Graphics [rjvveeke@caiw.nl] The borderline Express will terminate at this station :) From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Mar 22 22:46:12 1998 Message-Id: <199803222232.WAA11789@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Paul Walker Organization: very little To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 21:29:43 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Pointless argument about heading Emails... (mid length reply References: <199803220216.CAA18818@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 872 Lines: 24 > I also use Free Agent as my Newsreader, i havn't found one to better > it yet, but i was unaware of it's ability to handle incomming e-mail > from a mailing list, can anyone enlighten me???? 'fraid not, since I didn't realise it would handle incoming mail either..! > Is it just me or does everyboby get the messages quoted by the AOL > e-mail software that is not properly formated??? Not that I remember .. I don't always read the messages, though. (Habit from fidonet - if the first page is just quotes, it's very likely they have nothing worthwhile to say, so you may as well skip it.) AOL software needs a good kick, from what I've seen and heard about it. No matter. Paul -- ---- MicroSoft Windows - where do you want to crash today? ---- FidoNet: 2:254/60.11 2:442/103.13 ---> http://www.trak-one.co.uk/foti <--- From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Mar 22 22:46:17 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: <7b836445.351591c4@aol.com> Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 17:33:39 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Pointless argument about heading Emails... (short reply) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1623 Lines: 53 In a message dated 21/03/98 19:52:50, you write: >> All AOL email routes through their main US based computor system. >> Hence the EST (Eastern Standard Time) which is I think 5 hrs behind >> us in the UK. >> >> HTH. >> >> -- >> Bob. > > >That may be so, and you are correct, Eastern it is and -0500 it is, >but it is not the mail gateway that supplies the time of the message, >it is your mail software that supplies the 'Date' line. The mail >gateways that are used to carry the mail will all stamp the mail >message with a 'Received: ' line with a date and time, along with the >server name. > >As you can see from your headers: > >Received: from sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no ([129.241.210.67]) > by punt-1.mail.demon.net id aa1128556; 21 Mar 98 12:12 GMT >Received: by sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no id <49554-7296>; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 >13:08:25 +0100 > >Received: from BrenchleyR@aol.com > by imo19.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id UAUSa07549 > for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 07:07:48 -0500 (EST) >From: BrenchleyR >Message-ID: <72f49101.3513ad96@aol.com> >Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 07:07:48 EST > > > >You are sure that your 'Regional Setting' are set correctly in >'Control Panel' arn't you Bob??? ;-) > > >-- >Dean Liversidge Yes, I'm sure. And it is something that I have had out with AOL a couple of times before. But there explination is that the date and time are set in the outgoing message by the email gateway which works on EST. BTW, to allow a couple of other things to relate my machine always works on GMT, I don't allow Summer Time to change things. HTH. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Mar 22 22:46:18 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: <75a0775f.351592a8@aol.com> Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 17:37:26 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Who? (Re: The Plan for SAM.) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 725 Lines: 28 In a message dated 22/03/98 22:05:52, you write: > >> Van: BillRitman >> Aan: sam-users@nvg.unit.no >> Onderwerp: Re: Who? (Re: The Plan for SAM.) >> Datum: Sunday, March 22, 1998 9:07 > >> Why is it that some people are so negative? I would have thought that we >all, >> as Sam users, would like to see our machines improved and expanded. If >people >> don't like their Sams anymore, why don't they sell them and go play with >a >> machine they do like. > >This is sick, pinch me in the arm to say that this is not true, that the >above writing was only a bad dream and that when I open my eyes it has gone >away. > >Bill why are you still here?????? > > Could it be that he likes his SAM? -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Mar 22 22:46:19 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 17:40:03 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Pointless argument about heading Emails... (apolgy (ish) ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 568 Lines: 19 In a message dated 22/03/98 12:47:21, you write: >. > >This does not mean that all the AOL mail users here so far are >correct, because there messages still include the 'Date: ' header >feild which shows the message posting Date as though it was posted in >the wrong country, It should read either, +0000, UT, or GMT, or >omited showing local time. > > >So the argument still stands, but it means that it's my mailer >software that is showing the messages out of order. As I've said, all AOL mail should be timed/dated as EST. That is how AOL works. -- Bob. From imc Sun Mar 22 23:01:08 1998 Subject: Re: A reply to Pointless argument about heading Emails... ( Long Ema To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 23:01:08 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Graham Goring" at Mar 21, 98 11:13:43 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 283 Lines: 8 On Sat, 21 Mar 1998 23:13:43 +0000, Graham Goring said: > Howzabout paraphrasing for us members of the MTV generation? :) If you leave your mail for a couple of days then you end up with quite a lot of mail to read and it's all in the wrong order because the dates are wrong. imc From imc Sun Mar 22 23:02:32 1998 Subject: Re: Pointless argument about heading Emails... (mid length reply To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 23:02:32 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199803220216.CAA18818@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> from "Paul Walker" at Mar 22, 98 02:15:36 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 229 Lines: 7 On Sun, 22 Mar 1998 02:15:36 +0000, Paul Walker said: > Bob, just a minor point - can you please stop quoting quite so much? Good grief, you don't expect Bob to waste time going up and pressing the delete key, do you?... imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Mar 22 23:42:24 1998 Message-ID: <+Cs$rDAmCaF1EwiG@duketastrophy.demon.co.uk> Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 23:37:10 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Graham Goring Subject: Re: A reply to Pointless argument about heading Emails... ( Long Ema In-Reply-To: <199803222301.XAA20377@chalca.comlab.ox.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Trial Version 3.05 <8OHKkEUpoELRXgFKFsA4hwDBr8> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 866 Lines: 21 In message <199803222301.XAA20377@chalca.comlab.ox.ac.uk>, Ian Collier writes >On Sat, 21 Mar 1998 23:13:43 +0000, Graham Goring said: >> Howzabout paraphrasing for us members of the MTV generation? :) > >If you leave your mail for a couple of days then you end up with >quite a lot of mail to read and it's all in the wrong order because >the dates are wrong. Righty. Understanderoony. Graham -- /====================================================\ +--------------+ | My proverb for this week: | |This Space For| | "The less bits, the less can go wrong... | | Hire - Ideal | | Unless you wobble something important at the back" | |For Weddings &| \==Graham Goring - graham@duketastrophy.demon.co.uk==/ | Bahmitzvas | My Website, coming to a server near you - SOON +--------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Mar 23 00:16:50 1998 Message-Id: <199803230011.AAA22097@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Paul Walker Organization: very little To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 00:11:11 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Pointless argument about heading Emails... (mid length reply In-reply-to: <199803222302.XAA20393@chalca.comlab.ox.ac.uk> References: <199803220216.CAA18818@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> from "Paul Walker" at Mar 22, 98 02:15:36 am X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 515 Lines: 13 > > Bob, just a minor point - can you please stop quoting quite so much? > Good grief, you don't expect Bob to waste time going up and pressing the > delete key, do you?... He can do this the pointy-clicky way, if he really wants. As long as I don't get two pages worth of quotes for 4 lines of new text, I really don't care! Paul -- ---- MicroSoft Windows - where do you want to crash today? ---- FidoNet: 2:254/60.11 2:442/103.13 ---> http://www.trak-one.co.uk/foti <--- From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Mar 23 02:21:57 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980322211312.006a77f8@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 21:13:12 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Oh sod it. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 483 Lines: 14 I'm back. I ended up spending even more time on BBSes. I won't be posting much though; deadlines are happening, and I want to spend some quality time with my C compiler. Ta-ta for now, Simon +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | "You know... you can tell someone's vain when they quote themselves | | in their own .sig file..." -- Simon Cooke | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Mar 23 09:34:13 1998 X-Lotus-FromDomain: CASE TECHNOLOGY From: Justin_Skists@case.co.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Message-ID: <002565D0.0033F07C.00@notes_a.case.co.uk> Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:29:07 +0000 Subject: Re: Compilers... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 380 Lines: 14 >Um, whats the opinion of anyone on this list of that free compiler from >Delorie (DJP or summat, I forget...)? > >Graham DJGPP. It's excellent. Much better (in my opinion) than Borland and Microsoft C/C++ compilers. Especially for DOS-type apps. It may take a while to set up/learn to use especially if you've never use a UNIX style compiler. But it's well worth it. Justin. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Mar 23 10:23:40 1998 Message-ID: <012e01bd5644$c10f1d40$f03ca8c0@DavesPC.DOMAIN_ORCHID> From: Dave To: sam-users Subject: Re: A reply to Pointless argument about heading Emails... Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:16:02 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 543 Lines: 20 >>If you leave your mail for a couple of days then you end up with >>quite a lot of mail to read and it's all in the wrong order because >>the dates are wrong. > >Righty. Understanderoony. > Not having entered this particular pointless argument yet, I'd just like to say that incorrectly set dates are the bane of my life as well. Not, you understand, because I get messages out of order. If you ever write a mailer-daemon program it makes life so much easier if you can assume that people have got their dates set correctly.... DMZ --- From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Mar 23 11:58:35 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980323063738.006aa02c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 06:37:38 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Lack of progress Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2222 Lines: 45 And not surprising really... I'm struggling to keep my eyes open after a nearly 24hour VB debugging and writing-new-bits session. Arghhhghghghghghghghhhh! Don'tcha just hate deadlines? Talking to Gavin earlier (well, yesterday, I suppose). Made me think a bit. Termite is nigh-on releasable; it doesn't have any file download stuff, and the VT100 emulation needs a bit of work. Scroll buffer needs to be implemented too. But if I make some compromises and functionality for *this* version, it's releasable. Just needs a bit of tidying and a few gate-keeper functions adding. (I've come to realise, at last[1], that extra features can wait -- part of the reason Termite's been delayed and delayed and delayed is because I was trying to put in the ability to have multiple font sizes, scroll-back buffers as big as memory, log files, IEMSI string handling, etc etc etc. Solution? Put them in later.) Simon [1] I'm a perfectionist. Mind you, part of this revelation has come about because I've finally had to relinquish my role as "The coder who never put out stuff with bugs in" [2]. Which has come about through 6 months of intensive debugging of VB code written by a mainframe programmer who never *checked* that his code worked. To be honest, with the sheer mass of bugs I'm wading through, I'm nearly 100% certain that he never even tried to run the bloody thing once. Otherwise, he'd have got stuck the moment he hit the RUN button. Git. [2] Apart from Parallax[3], but I did write the protection code for that in a 24hour stint after the code arrived the day before it was due to be released, and I had to write around that code for the routines. [3] And the SAM->BMP converter[4], but that's because the documentation was wrong. Ho hum. [4] And the TRUMPET project Java GUI interface for ATM networking[5], but that's because Sun screwed up the Date class so that it was nigh-on unusable. [5] But I think that's the lot. +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | "You know... you can tell someone's vain when they quote themselves | | in their own .sig file..." -- Simon Cooke | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Mar 23 12:18:55 1998 X-Warning: Original message contained 8-bit characters, however during the SMTP transport session the receiving system was unable to announce capability of receiving 8-bit SMTP (RFC 1651-1653), and as this message does not have MIME headers (RFC 2045-2049) to enable encoding change, we had very little choices. X-Warning: We ASSUME it is less harmful to add the MIME headers, and convert the text to Quoted-Printable, than not to do so, and to strip the message to 7-bits.. (RFC 1428 Appendix A) X-Warning: We don't know what character set the user used, thus we had to write these MIME-headers with our local system default value. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 13:13:50 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9803231213.AA22905@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Lack of progress X-Sun-Charset: ISO-8859-1 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by mail.comlab.ox.ac.uk id MAA03918 Status: RO Content-Length: 703 Lines: 17 > (I've come to realise, at last[1], that extra features can wait -- part of > the reason Termite's been delayed and delayed and delayed is because I was > trying to put in the ability to have multiple font sizes, scroll-back > buffers as big as memory, log files, IEMSI string handling, etc etc etc. > Solution? Put them in later.) They are called TBD features. My 5 øre; one monospaced font, a predefined scroll-back and option to log and voila. -Frode > > [1] I'm a perfectionist. Mind you, part of this revelation has come about > because I've finally had to relinquish my role as "The coder who never put > out stuff with bugs in" [2]. Which has come about through 6 months of Nah! Never! :) From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Mar 23 12:42:36 1998 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Pointless argument about heading Emails... (apolgy (ish) ) References: from "Dean Liversidge" at Mar 21, 98 07:46:18 pm X-Mammoth-Status: Aware X-{giggle}: Lots! From: The Giggler Date: 23 Mar 1998 12:34:57 +0000 In-Reply-To: "Dean Liversidge"'s message of "Sun, 22 Mar 1998 12:45:03 +0000" Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.66/Emacs 19.34 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 996 Lines: 25 "Dean Liversidge" writes: > This does not mean that all the AOL mail users here so far are > correct, because there messages still include the 'Date: ' header > feild which shows the message posting Date as though it was posted in > the wrong country, It should read either, +0000, UT, or GMT, or > omited showing local time. No, the Date: field is just what it says it is, ie an indication of when the message was posted, it does not have to tell you _where_ it was posted from and in the cases previously quoted the dates are all set correctly, it is irrelevant what country they say ... Ian Collier writes: > > I hate to agree with Bob but the date line on this is correct. It > > might be better if it said 12:07:48 GMT instead of 07:07:48 EST, but > > both are correct and I suspect this is a feature of AOL being, as > > its name suggests, an on-line service operated from America. My point exactly ... Lee. -- Yawn And Walk North From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Mar 23 14:32:27 1998 Message-Id: <199803231418.OAA27268@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:18:26 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Compilers... In-reply-to: <002565D0.0033F07C.00@notes_a.case.co.uk> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 390 Lines: 12 > DJGPP. > It's excellent. Much better (in my opinion) than Borland and Microsoft > C/C++ compilers. Especially for DOS-type apps. second that. well, almost. i just finished writing some C++ stuff using Borland because, even though GCC compiled it ok, it didn't actually work at all when i ran it. same code in borland, compiled fine, ran fine. weird. probably my fault, though. dave From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Mar 23 14:48:05 1998 Message-ID: <024801bd5669$4d333bc0$f03ca8c0@DavesPC.DOMAIN_ORCHID> From: Dave To: sam-users Subject: Re: Compilers... Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:37:39 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 620 Lines: 27 > second that. well, almost. i just finished writing some C++ stuff > using Borland because, even though GCC compiled it ok, it didn't > actually work at all when i ran it. same code in borland, compiled > fine, ran fine. weird. > > probably my fault, though. > > dave Have you checked that you're not making assignments to char*'s? e.g. char *A="something"; A[0]='n'; doesn't normally work on GNU compilers without explicitly setting the right compiler options, whereas char A[]="something"; A[0]='n'; works fine. Just one of many possibilities, but it caught me out the first time... DMZ --- From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Mar 23 15:30:39 1998 From: askillma Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:30:43 +0000 (GMT) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Compilers... In-Reply-To: <024801bd5669$4d333bc0$f03ca8c0@DavesPC.DOMAIN_ORCHID> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 979 Lines: 23 > > Have you checked that you're not making assignments to char*'s? > > e.g. char *A="something"; > A[0]='n'; > > doesn't normally work on GNU compilers without explicitly setting > the right compiler options, whereas And it shouldn't (as Ian will probably point out) In the first statement you are declaring a pointer (A) and setting it to point to a constant The seond line attempts to write to the string constant, which could well be in a read only area. very naughty (and possibly dangerous). Allan +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Allan Skillman | "There are five flavours of resons, the | | EDA Group | elementary particles of magic : up, down, | | Advanced RISC Machines | sideways, sex-appeal and peppermint." | | allan.skillman@arm.com | - Terry Pratchett (Lords and Ladies) | +------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Mar 23 15:57:27 1998 Message-ID: <027701bd5673$38558b40$f03ca8c0@DavesPC.DOMAIN_ORCHID> From: Dave To: sam-users Subject: Re: Compilers... Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:48:39 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1307 Lines: 37 >And it shouldn't (as Ian will probably point out) In the first statement >you are declaring a pointer (A) and setting it to point to a constant > >The seond line attempts to write to the string constant, which could well >be in a read only area. very naughty (and possibly dangerous). It all depends in which data segment the compiler places the string data. I am indeed assigning a pointer to a constant string, but many compilers do not place the string in a read only area. Thus, the data can be altered as it is writable. Not even a warning is generated for the line char *a="... which if the string is read only should theoretically read const char *a="... to avoid a warning being generated. Interesting, neh? See the gcc info pages regarding -fwritable-strings. cc will compile and run it straight off (sparc compiler, that is). Ummm.... dangerous? I think not. There should be absolutely no problems at all if the compiler places the data in the correct data segment, although you could specify the data as static if you want to be really safe. It's all down to compiler and platform, really. DMZ --- PS... no need to be **that** pedantic. gcc -Wall -ansi -pedantic won't even generate a warning for that one.... (though the binary will core dump with a segmentation fault) :) From imc Mon Mar 23 16:10:36 1998 Subject: Re: Compilers... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:10:36 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <027701bd5673$38558b40$f03ca8c0@DavesPC.DOMAIN_ORCHID> from "Dave" at Mar 23, 98 03:48:39 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 1536 Lines: 43 On Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:48:39 -0000, Dave said: > >The seond line attempts to write to the string constant, which could well > >be in a read only area. very naughty (and possibly dangerous). > It all depends in which data segment the compiler places the string data. But the compiler is _entitled_ to put the string in a read-only segment, and that's all that matters. The compiler is also entitled to implement char *a="hello world"; char *b="world"; by making b point within the string pointed to by a; it is entitled to put them in a writeable segment, and it is entitled to change b if you write to the string pointed to by a. What this means is: don't try writing to string constants. The behaviour is undefined. > Not even a warning is generated for the line > > char *a="... > > which if the string is read only should theoretically read > > const char *a="... It would probably generate too many warnings if string literals were given the "const" attribute. :-) > Ummm.... dangerous? I think not. There should be absolutely no problems at > all if the compiler places the data in the correct data segment, For some value of "correct"! > It's > all down to compiler and platform, really. The point is that writing a program which depends on compiler and platform for no good reason is bad. The same applies to things like "a[i++]=i;". It might work, but the standard says the behaviour is undefined so don't do it. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Mar 23 16:52:52 1998 Message-ID: <029c01bd567a$ed00e6a0$f03ca8c0@DavesPC.DOMAIN_ORCHID> From: Dave To: sam-users Subject: Re: Compilers... Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:43:49 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1077 Lines: 31 > It would probably generate too many warnings if string literals were > given the "const" attribute. :-) Oooh.. I don't know.. let's see, shall we... Nope, absolutely loves it. Anyway, it's the pointer with the const attribute, not the literal... :) > The point is that writing a program which depends on compiler and platform > for no good reason is bad. Hey, I never said for an instant that I actually **used** it. I just said that it's a possible cause. I was highlighting one of the ways in which the two compilers differ. Please, feel free to look over any of my code, you'll only find char thing[]="... :) > The same applies to things like "a[i++]=i;". > It might work, but the standard says the behaviour is undefined so don't > do it. Whereas if they ever remove lazy logic evaluation then most C programs in existance will suddenly fail to operate :) Nope, I write nice ANSI C and C++, I do... (as a testament to this, my C++ raytracer has been successfully compiled and run on numerous platforms and compilers with not a single line changed) :) DMZ --- From imc Mon Mar 23 17:04:52 1998 Subject: Re: Compilers... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 17:04:52 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <029c01bd567a$ed00e6a0$f03ca8c0@DavesPC.DOMAIN_ORCHID> from "Dave" at Mar 23, 98 04:43:49 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 844 Lines: 20 On Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:43:49 -0000, Dave said: > > It would probably generate too many warnings if string literals were > > given the "const" attribute. :-) > Oooh.. I don't know.. let's see, shall we... Nope, absolutely loves it. > Anyway, it's the pointer with the const attribute, not the literal... :) You misunderstand. String literals have a type. That type is "char *". Now, if the compiler were to decide that type were "const char *" then it would issue warnings for "char *a="hello"". My suggestion is that it would generate far too many warnings on some people's code if it did that. > > The point is that writing a program which depends on compiler and platform > > for no good reason is bad. > Hey, I never said for an instant that I actually **used** it. I didn't say you did; although, you did appear to defend it. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Mar 23 19:36:59 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: <9d06b048.3516b8db@aol.com> Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:32:41 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Pointless argument about heading Emails... (mid length reply Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 783 Lines: 27 In a message dated 23/03/98 00:17:19, you write: >o > >> > Bob, just a minor point - can you please stop quoting quite so much? >> Good grief, you don't expect Bob to waste time going up and pressing the >> delete key, do you?... > >He can do this the pointy-clicky way, if he really wants. As long as >I don't get two pages worth of quotes for 4 lines of new text, I >really don't care! > >Paul General Rule #1. Quote everything you are replying to - the person reading may not have access to the original. General Rule #2. Cut anything not being replied to. Bob's Maxim #1. If I cut I will be told I have not replied to the important part of the message, however hidden and obscure it was. If I don't cut I will still be in the wrong. So to hell with it :) HTH. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Mar 23 19:52:34 1998 Message-ID: <3515DAF6.222F@postmaster.co.uk> Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 19:45:58 -0800 From: David Ledbury Organization: The Foundation for Green Eggs & Ham X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: 1772 vs 1771 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 155 Lines: 6 Okay, question here for you.... How close is the 1771 to the increasingly hard to get 1772? I've been forwarded details of a supplier of these... David From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Mar 24 00:27:40 1998 From: Peter Harkess To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 07:56:42 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: YAM 2.0.0 Preview3 [020] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck - http://www.yam.ch Subject: Re: SRAM CARD. Head Count Please. X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1427 Lines: 43 All hail the Newflesh MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain BrenchleyR While summoning a demon,chanted, "SRAM CARD. Head Count Please.": > At the current rate of progress there will be an opportunity to run a batch of > boards for the first version of the SRAM card in late April. > > The card will be almost exactly like the one designed by Bruce Gordon for use > during the SAM ROM development. It allows 32K of static RAM to be loaded and > then switched in to replace the ROM. It also allows a 32K Eprom to be tested > without the need to open SAM up. > > Intention is to produce a small board (half standard SAM size), which will > sell at cost price to mailing list people with or without the SRAM chip. Full > trade-in will then be available against any future version produced. > > In order to judge how many to commit to producing I would like some indication > as to how many people will want one - I'm not worried at the moment about who > will or will not be working on the ROM/DOS project, it is just a case that the > more I make the cheaper per unit they become. > > Costs will be worked out at Maplin current cataloge prices for the parts + the > cost of the board+p&p. > Kind regards Any chance of an explination of what the SRAM CARD does please. Then i might commit myself. -- Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. -- Albert Einstein cheers Peter Harkess From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Mar 24 00:27:41 1998 From: Dean Liversidge To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 23:25:46 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Pointless argument about heading Emails... (still) References: "Dean Liversidge"'s message of "Sun, 22 Mar 1998 12:45:03 +0000" In-reply-to: Message-Id: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 8292 Lines: 194 > From: The Giggler > > No, the Date: field is just what it says it is, ie an indication of > when the message was posted, it does not have to tell you _where_ it > was posted from and in the cases previously quoted the dates are all > set correctly, it is irrelevant what country they say ... No, it doesn't have to tell you where it was posted, but it does have to tell you the time and date the message was created, and since when does anybody in Britain, tell the time in Eastern Standard Time???, oh, its nearly 7 o'clock Eastern Time, I think I'll have some dinner! When a time zone is quoted it is accepted that it is the time zone that you are in. If for example the time zone was ommited, which is acceptable, then it is classed as 'local time', which dictates, logically, that the Date in general should be local time for the message. > > > I hate to agree with Bob but the date line on this is correct. It I don't hate to agree with Bob at all unless he is incorrect. And the fact that his first responce to my message was to say that it was the AOL mail gateway that stamps the Date, is incorrect. > > > might be better if it said 12:07:48 GMT instead of 07:07:48 EST, but > > > both are correct and I suspect this is a feature of AOL being, as > > > its name suggests, an on-line service operated from America. > > My point exactly ... I already accepted that the time is consistant and relatively correct, but it is not a feature of AOL, it may possibly be a bug though! :-) What would be nice was for AOL, or their users to accept that the mail software doesn't do it's job properly. I've already agreed that the mail software i'm using doesn't do it's job properly. I'm not too proud. If any one is interested if carrying on this thread then feel free, but i think i've stated enough of the facts about mail specifications What follows is extracts from the RFC documents on the Syntax for Internet Mail. Just as a side thought though, does anyone know of an updated, or revision the RFC822, which defines the Date fields' Year code to have more than 2 digits, to cope with the Year 2000 better ????, since most E-mail's have the year in 4 digit format..... [quotes from rfc822] message = fields *( CRLF *text ) ; Everything after ; first null line ; is message body fields = dates ; Creation time, source ; author id & one 1*destination ; address required *optional-field ; others optional source = [ trace ] ; net traversals originator ; original mail [ resent ] ; forwarded trace = return ; path to sender 1*received ; receipt tags return = "Return-path" ":" route-addr ; return address received = "Received" ":" ; one per relay ["from" domain] ; sending host ["by" domain] ; receiving host ["via" atom] ; physical path *("with" atom) ; link/mail protocol ["id" msg-id] ; receiver msg id ["for" addr-spec] ; initial form originator = authentic ; authenticated addr [ "Reply-To" ":" 1#address] ) authentic = "From" ":" mailbox ; Single author / ( "Sender" ":" mailbox ; Actual submittor "From" ":" 1#mailbox) ; Multiple authors ; or not sender resent = resent-authentic [ "Resent-Reply-To" ":" 1#address] ) resent-authentic = = "Resent-From" ":" mailbox / ( "Resent-Sender" ":" mailbox "Resent-From" ":" 1#mailbox ) dates = orig-date ; Original [ resent-date ] ; Forwarded orig-date = "Date" ":" date-time resent-date = "Resent-Date" ":" date-time destination = "To" ":" 1#address ; Primary / "Resent-To" ":" 1#address / "cc" ":" 1#address ; Secondary / "Resent-cc" ":" 1#address / "bcc" ":" #address ; Blind carbon / "Resent-bcc" ":" #address 4.3.2. RECEIVED A copy of this field is added by each transport service that relays the message. The information in the field can be quite useful for tracing transport problems. The names of the sending and receiving hosts and time-of- receipt may be specified. The "via" parameter may be used, to indicate what physical mechanism the message was sent over, such as Arpanet or Phonenet, and the "with" parameter may be used to indicate the mail-, or connection-, level protocol that was used, such as the SMTP mail protocol, or X.25 tran- sport protocol. Note: Several "with" parameters may be included, to fully specify the set of protocols that were used. Some transport services queue mail; the internal message iden- tifier that is assigned to the message may be noted, using the "id" parameter. When the sending host uses a destination address specification that the receiving host reinterprets, by 5. DATE AND TIME SPECIFICATION 5.1. SYNTAX date-time = [ day "," ] date time ; dd mm yy ; hh:mm:ss zzz day = "Mon" / "Tue" / "Wed" / "Thu" / "Fri" / "Sat" / "Sun" date = 1*2DIGIT month 2DIGIT ; day month year ; e.g. 20 Jun 82 month = "Jan" / "Feb" / "Mar" / "Apr" / "May" / "Jun" / "Jul" / "Aug" / "Sep" / "Oct" / "Nov" / "Dec" time = hour zone ; ANSI and Military hour = 2DIGIT ":" 2DIGIT [":" 2DIGIT] ; 00:00:00 - 23:59:59 zone = "UT" / "GMT" ; Universal Time ; North American : UT / "EST" / "EDT" ; Eastern: - 5/ - 4 / "CST" / "CDT" ; Central: - 6/ - 5 / "MST" / "MDT" ; Mountain: - 7/ - 6 / "PST" / "PDT" ; Pacific: - 8/ - 7 / 1ALPHA ; Military: Z = UT; ; A:-1; (J not used) ; M:-12; N:+1; Y:+12 / ( ("+" / "-") 4DIGIT ) ; Local differential ; hours+min. (HHMM) 5.2. SEMANTICS If included, day-of-week must be the day implied by the date specification. Time zone may be indicated in several ways. "UT" is Univer- sal Time (formerly called "Greenwich Mean Time"); "GMT" is per- mitted as a reference to Universal Time. The military standard uses a single character for each zone. "Z" is Universal Time. "A" indicates one hour earlier, and "M" indicates 12 hours ear- lier; "N" is one hour later, and "Y" is 12 hours later. The letter "J" is not used. The other remaining two forms are taken from ANSI standard X3.51-1975. One allows explicit indication of the amount of offset from UT; the other uses common 3-character strings for indicating time zones in North America. -- Dean Liversidge From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Mar 24 00:27:42 1998 From: Dean Liversidge To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 00:05:16 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Pointless argument about heading Emails... (apolgy (ish) ) References: "Dean Liversidge"'s message of "Sun, 22 Mar 1998 12:45:03 +0000" In-reply-to: Message-Id: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1459 Lines: 41 With reference to last post about Date Stamp in rfc822, i've just founf the updated rfc, rfc1123, which includes the spec about 4digit year date stamps. It basically means that mail can have between 2 and 4 digits for the year field in a date stamp, and that it is prefereable to use hours in time zones not regions. [extracts] RFC1123 MAIL -- SMTP & RFC-822 October 1989 5.2.14 RFC-822 Date and Time Specification: RFC-822 Section 5 The syntax for the date is hereby changed to: date = 1*2DIGIT month 2*4DIGIT All mail software SHOULD use 4-digit years in dates, to ease the transition to the next century. There is a strong trend towards the use of numeric timezone indicators, and implementations SHOULD use numeric timezones instead of timezone names. However, all implementations MUST accept either notation. If timezone names are used, they MUST be exactly as defined in RFC-822. The military time zones are specified incorrectly in RFC-822: they count the wrong way from UT (the signs are reversed). As a result, military time zones in RFC-822 headers carry no information. Finally, note that there is a typo in the definition of "zone" in the syntax summary of appendix D; the correct definition occurs in Section 3 of RFC-822. -- Dean Liversidge From imc Tue Mar 24 10:56:55 1998 Subject: Re: Pointless argument about heading Emails... (still) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 10:56:55 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Dean Liversidge" at Mar 23, 98 11:25:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 1382 Lines: 34 On Mon, 23 Mar 1998 23:25:46 +0000, Dean Liversidge said: > No, it doesn't have to tell you where it was posted, but it does have > to tell you the time and date the message was created, Which it does, whatever timezone it is written in (as long as the timezone agrees with the time). > When a time zone is quoted it is accepted that it is the time zone > that you are in. Not necessarily. > If for example the time zone was ommited, which is > acceptable, then it is classed as 'local time', No. The zone must be specified because you cannot tell from the rest of the message what "local time" is. I can't see anywhere in the RFC you quoted any bit which says the date must be in a local time zone. > And the > fact that his first responce to my message was to say that it was the > AOL mail gateway that stamps the Date, is incorrect. How do you know? AOL is an online service. It is allowed to have whatever gateway it likes, and it appears from earlier messages that it is not a standard SMTP service. For all we know the gateway could require people to write their messages in morse code, and it translates them into RFC822-compliant messages. One of the things it does during this process is add a Date: header. And since AOL is "America" on-line, it adds an American date. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Mar 24 11:25:10 1998 From: Matthew Craven Organization: UMIST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 11:15:11 BST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: SRAM CARD. Head Count Please. In-reply-to: References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-ID: <261113F89@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 343 Lines: 12 > Kind regards > > Any chance of an explination of what the SRAM CARD does please. > Then i might commit myself. > -- > Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. > -- Albert Einstein Yes, Einstein did say that and he is correct. I asked you what the SRAM card did before, Bob, but you never answered me. MJC. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Mar 24 12:14:39 1998 From: "E.P.R.P. Blink" Organization: Hanzehogeschool Groningen To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:54:46 MET Subject: Re: 1772 vs 1771 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-ID: <6050D2941D7@mail1.pl.hanze.nl> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 445 Lines: 14 David asked: > How close is the 1771 to the increasingly hard to get 1772? I've been > forwarded details of a supplier of these... I Believe the 1770,1771 and 1772 are almost the same. I think the only differece is the step rates for step commands. I'm pretty sure for the 1770 because It was used in the OPUS Discovery for the ZX spectrum which I had in my spectrum days. I'll try to dig out some more info about them. Edwin Blink From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Mar 24 12:21:15 1998 From: davidm@enterprise.net (David Munden) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Current Plans for the Assembler Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:10:32 GMT Message-ID: <351bee0e.1984249@mail.enterprise.net> References: <3.0.1.32.19980317161506.006c3a10@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> <3.0.1.32.19980317163819.006ebe2c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980317163819.006ebe2c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 280 Lines: 9 On Tue, 17 Mar 1998 16:38:19 -0500, you wrote: >But as I use windows, I'm going to stick a nice fancy project editor and >shell around it. May as well. Sounds like it could be interesting stuff. I may not know much C, but I would have fun playing with it. _ |_)avid (\/)unden From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Mar 24 14:27:31 1998 From: The Mad Goose Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:21:50 GMT+0 Subject: Absolute drivel... X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-ID: <163C5FB4A0B@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 487 Lines: 14 I've just spent the last half hour reading all that crap about AOL, and time zones etc. I really didn't sub to a list to debate about stuff like that. Thank god I'm going home on Friday - hopefully after Easter things will have calmed down and people will stop nit-picking and get down to trying to advance Bob's project. But pig will sooner fly.... Peace, Love, Kisses... Johnna Pig Teare JPOL: http://www.yi.com/home/TeareJohnna "I just want my future to live up to my past..." From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Mar 24 14:54:21 1998 Message-ID: <00ba01bd5733$7db674e0$f03ca8c0@DavesPC.DOMAIN_ORCHID> From: Dave To: sam-users Subject: Re: Compilers... Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:44:59 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 352 Lines: 17 > > Hey, I never said for an instant that I actually **used** it. > > I didn't say you did; although, you did appear to defend it. > OK then... what about: "You can write to the contents of a string literal, you know"... "Government health warning: Attempting to alter the contents of a C string literal may damage your executable" :) DMZ --- From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Mar 24 20:18:56 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: <2169ce12.35181220@aol.com> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:01:03 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Pointless argument about heading Emails... (still) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 707 Lines: 18 In a message dated 24/03/98 00:19:30, you write: Thank you for all the information on email formats, will file that away for later use as I think it may come in useful one day. > >I don't hate to agree with Bob at all unless he is incorrect. And the >fact that his first responce to my message was to say that it was the >AOL mail gateway that stamps the Date, is incorrect. Well, let us put it this way, I can do anything I like with my pooter's clock, and it does not make one iota difference to the date and time fields on an AOL email. On my machine the times are 'local time', it is only when I send a message that the EST is inserted. So, if it ain't I, then it must be AOL's gateway. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Mar 24 20:27:55 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: <2ca1da91.35181386@aol.com> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:01:01 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: SRAM CARD. Head Count Please. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 453 Lines: 14 In a message dated 24/03/98 00:19:26, you write: > >Any chance of an explination of what the SRAM CARD does please. >Then i might commit myself. Sits on back of SAM, has 32K Static Ram which can be loaded with a version of the code that normaly sits in ROM. You load from disc, press a switch and in effect you have a new ROM until you switch the machine off. Also thinking of adding a de-bounced NMI button if people would be interested. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Mar 24 23:24:04 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980324155802.006ac640@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:58:02 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SRAM CARD. Head Count Please. In-Reply-To: <2ca1da91.35181386@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 425 Lines: 11 At 03:01 PM 3/24/98 EST, you wrote: >Also thinking of adding a de-bounced NMI button if people would be interested. Go to it! :) Simon +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | "You know... you can tell someone's vain when they quote themselves | | in their own .sig file..." -- Simon Cooke | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Mar 24 23:24:04 1998 Message-Id: <35182C05.2AC8@cableol.co.uk> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 21:56:21 +0000 From: Gavin Smith X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SRAM CARD. Head Count Please. References: <2ca1da91.35181386@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 480 Lines: 13 BrenchleyR wrote: > Sits on back of SAM, has 32K Static Ram which can be loaded with a version of > the code that normaly sits in ROM. You load from disc, press a switch and in > effect you have a new ROM until you switch the machine off. > > Also thinking of adding a de-bounced NMI button if people would be interested. > > -- > Bob. De-bounced NMI button would probably sell more SRAM cards than anything else ;) (i.e. 2 cards sold instead of 1 - boom boom! Only joking :) From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Mar 24 23:24:16 1998 From: arivyyrl@aqverpg.pb.hx (Nev Young) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Pointless argument about heading Emails... (still) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 21:59:59 GMT Organization: Message-ID: <351d21e6.1415135@mail.enterprise.net> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 569 Lines: 17 On Mon, 23 Mar 1998 23:25:46 +0000, "Dean Liversidge" wrote: > I don't hate to agree with Bob at all unless he is incorrect. And the > fact that his first responce to my message was to say that it was the > AOL mail gateway that stamps the Date, is incorrect. > > My mails are stamped with the date and time on my PC. If I have the date set wrong my ISP tells me to f*ck off and fix it before the message can be sent. -- Nev - still at nevilley @ ndirect . co . uk but fighting the hordes of spam. From imc Tue Mar 24 23:54:49 1998 Subject: Re: SRAM CARD. Head Count Please. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 23:54:49 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <2ca1da91.35181386@aol.com> from "BrenchleyR" at Mar 24, 98 03:01:01 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 207 Lines: 6 On Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:01:01 EST, BrenchleyR said: > Also thinking of adding a de-bounced NMI button if people would be interested. Already got one. :-) Should have been standard in the first place. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 25 00:15:45 1998 Message-Id: <199803242355.XAA00263@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Paul Walker Organization: very little To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 23:55:07 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Pointless argument about heading Emails... (mid length reply In-reply-to: <9d06b048.3516b8db@aol.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 596 Lines: 16 > General Rule #1. Quote everything you are replying to - the person reading may > not have access to the original. No - general rule #1 is quote enough that the person you're replying to can follow what the thread is about, but *don't* over quote. > General Rule #2. Cut anything not being replied to. Exactly. You weren't replying to the whole 50-odd lines of it, just *some*, so the rest wasn't needed. Paul -- ---- MicroSoft Windows - where do you want to crash today? ---- FidoNet: 2:254/60.11 2:442/103.13 ---> http://www.trak-one.co.uk/foti <--- From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 25 10:04:16 1998 From: Matthew Craven Organization: UMIST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 09:57:06 BST Subject: Re: SRAM CARD. Head Count Please. X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.31 Message-ID: <1914332699@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 400 Lines: 13 > > Sits on back of SAM, has 32K Static Ram which can be loaded with a version of > > the code that normaly sits in ROM. You load from disc, press a switch and in > > effect you have a new ROM until you switch the machine off. > > > > Also thinking of adding a de-bounced NMI button if people would be interested. > > > > -- > > Bob. It's taken you years to produce that? What is the point? MJC. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 25 12:11:00 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 06:21:37 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: SRAM CARD. Head Count Please. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 346 Lines: 16 In a message dated 24/03/98 23:56:09, you write: > >On Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:01:01 EST, BrenchleyR said: >> Also thinking of adding a de-bounced NMI button if people would be >interested. > >Already got one. :-) Should have been standard in the first place. > >imc That, as they say, is Bruce for you.... Tell um Nev, you was there. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 25 12:11:01 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 06:21:38 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Pointless argument about heading Emails... (mid length reply Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 771 Lines: 26 In a message dated 24/03/98 23:56:54, you write: > >> General Rule #1. Quote everything you are replying to - the person reading >may >> not have access to the original. > >No - general rule #1 is quote enough that the person you're replying >to can follow what the thread is about, but *don't* over quote. No, that would be true in normal email, but this is a mailing this which should be treated more like a newsgroup because people can come in in the middle of a thread. > >> General Rule #2. Cut anything not being replied to. > >Exactly. You weren't replying to the whole 50-odd lines of it, just >*some*, so the rest wasn't needed. Sometimes it is very difficult to cut while leaving the message readable. I do try, but only if I have time. > >Paul -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 25 12:11:12 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 06:21:36 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: SRAM CARD. Head Count Please. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 278 Lines: 14 In a message dated 24/03/98 23:30:29, you write: >At 03:01 PM 3/24/98 EST, you wrote: >>Also thinking of adding a de-bounced NMI button if people would be >interested. > >Go to it! :) > >Simon Well it only adds a few cheap componants to the list, so what the hell. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 25 12:11:13 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: <4f9889d0.3518e8c1@aol.com> Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 06:21:35 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: 1772 vs 1771 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 678 Lines: 24 In a message dated 24/03/98 22:27:51, you write: >o > >David asked: > >> How close is the 1771 to the increasingly hard to get 1772? I've been >> forwarded details of a supplier of these... > >I Believe the 1770,1771 and 1772 are almost the same. I think the >only differece is the step rates for step commands. > >I'm pretty sure for the 1770 because It was used in the OPUS >Discovery for the ZX spectrum which I had in my spectrum days. > >I'll try to dig out some more info about them. > >Edwin Blink I know one of them only deals with single density drives, its the one that was used in the BBC'B' but all my BBC stuff is in the loft so I can't check. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 25 12:44:02 1998 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Pointless argument about heading Emails... (mid length reply References: X-Mammoth-Status: Aware X-{giggle}: Lots! From: The Giggler Date: 25 Mar 1998 12:34:43 +0000 In-Reply-To: BrenchleyR's message of "Wed, 25 Mar 1998 06:21:38 EST" Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.66/Emacs 19.34 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1160 Lines: 31 BrenchleyR writes: > In a message dated 24/03/98 23:56:54, you write: > > > >No - general rule #1 is quote enough that the person you're replying > >to can follow what the thread is about, but *don't* over quote. > > No, that would be true in normal email, but this is a mailing this which > should be treated more like a newsgroup because people can come in in the > middle of a thread. Yes, exactly, so as Paul wrote you should include enough so that people can follow the points you're making but that hardly ever means the whole mail (Except in the case of one or two liners ...) > >> General Rule #2. Cut anything not being replied to. > > > >Exactly. You weren't replying to the whole 50-odd lines of it, just > >*some*, so the rest wasn't needed. > > Sometimes it is very difficult to cut while leaving the message readable. I do > try, but only if I have time. So if you haven't got the time well the rest of us have to waste our time wading through a few pages of irrelevant quoting, very thoughtful of you Bob, reminds me somewhat of a certain other issue that you haven't got time for ... Lee. -- Yawn And Walk North From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 25 16:04:14 1998 From: The Mad Goose Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:45:10 GMT+0 Subject: Have a good one... X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-ID: <17E36B200FC@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 265 Lines: 10 Here's Johnny-boy's message for Easter... ...Have a good one...! See you all in May...hopefully with some progress on the SRAM-Son. Peace, Love, Kisses... Johnna Pig Teare JPOL: http://www.yi.com/home/TeareJohnna "I just want my future to live up to my past..." From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 25 16:23:14 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: <216cb4f0.35192e6a@aol.com> Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:18:48 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: SRAM CARD. Head Count Please. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 557 Lines: 20 In a message dated 25/03/98 11:05:22, you write: > >It's taken you years to produce that? >What is the point? > >MJC. > > What, you mean the point of a debounced NMI? I would have thought that was simple - when developing software you often want to exit from what you are doing, a bouncy NMI is not a good thing to have to do the job. Anyway, there has been a debounced NMI before, Bruce did one as part of the Messenger system. A lot of people already have them but, for those that don't, I feel it would be a good addition to the SRAM card. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 25 23:46:56 1998 Message-Id: <199803251815.SAA14349@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Paul Walker Organization: very little To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:14:26 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: SRAM CARD. Head Count Please. In-reply-to: <216cb4f0.35192e6a@aol.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 449 Lines: 11 > What, you mean the point of a debounced NMI? I would have thought that was > simple - when developing software you often want to exit from what you are > doing, a bouncy NMI is not a good thing to have to do the job. No, I think he means the point of the SRAM. Paul -- ---- MicroSoft Windows - where do you want to crash today? ---- FidoNet: 2:254/60.11 2:442/103.13 ---> http://www.trak-one.co.uk/foti <--- From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 25 23:46:58 1998 From: davewhitmore@enterprise.net (Dave) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SRAM CARD. Head Count Please. Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 23:17:36 GMT Message-ID: <351c8cc6.34534148@mail.enterprise.net> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1198 Lines: 52 On Wed, 25 Mar 1998 06:21:37 EST, you wrote: >> >>On Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:01:01 EST, BrenchleyR said: >>> Also thinking of adding a de-bounced NMI button if people would be >>interested. Ian wrote: >>Already got one. :-) Should have been standard in the first place. >> >>imc Then Bob wrote: >That, as they say, is Bruce for you.... > >Tell um Nev, you was there. Yeah, that'd be interesting to know. "Let's fuck up the NMI so it'll be inadequate. Whadaya think guys?" "Welll.. um.. oh alright then. No one will mind. Who needs an NMI anyway?" "And.. I can always give them one in an expensive and otherwise useless piece of kit I've got a drawing of over here; I think I'll call it 'The Messenger'..." "But..." "Never mind the buts. Think future. When that piece of kit will be obsolete due to our liquidation, in another seven years people will be queuing up to join a list of people who want to advovcate SAM supremacy over all contenders by adding this liddle old ROM development board over here, with this liddle drawing over there. Oh god I'm good!" "Yeah..." Bye, Dave Whitmore http://homepages.enterprise.net/davewhitmore/INDEX.HTM From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 26 08:49:39 1998 From: askillma Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:44:41 +0000 (GMT) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Survey Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 846 Lines: 18 Hi Guys, As my new machine has a sound card, I've been trying to get SimCoupe to squeak. Aley's demo player (saa.exe) seems to work OK, but using the same driver SimCoupe stays stubbornly silent. I've checked the interface to the TSR, and the registers are definitely being filled in and the TSR called. Has anyone actually managed to get some sound out of SimCoupe v0.76? Allan +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Allan Skillman | "There are five flavours of resons, the | | EDA Group | elementary particles of magic : up, down, | | Advanced RISC Machines | sideways, sex-appeal and peppermint." | | allan.skillman@arm.com | - Terry Pratchett (Lords and Ladies) | +------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 26 16:54:15 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980326114323.006a7564@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 11:43:23 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Call for help! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 589 Lines: 19 Hi there, I can't get teledisk files into SAMDisk format using this machine. Which is problematic. Therefore, if people have machines that can run teledisk, and are willing to waste the time uploading them, can you: Turn the disks into DSK format for use on SIMCoupe, and Zip them up. Ta, Simon +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | "You know... you can tell someone's vain when they quote themselves | | in their own .sig file..." -- Simon Cooke | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 26 17:20:49 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: <51f0eb4e.351a8cbf@aol.com> Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:13:33 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: SRAM CARD. Head Count Please. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1644 Lines: 71 In a message dated 25/03/98 23:50:37, you write: >On Wed, 25 Mar 1998 06:21:37 EST, you wrote: > > >>> >>>On Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:01:01 EST, BrenchleyR said: >>>> Also thinking of adding a de-bounced NMI button if people would be >>>interested. > >Ian wrote: > >>>Already got one. :-) Should have been standard in the first place. >>> >>>imc > >Then Bob wrote: > >>That, as they say, is Bruce for you.... >> >>Tell um Nev, you was there. > >Yeah, that'd be interesting to know. > >"Let's fuck up the NMI so it'll be inadequate. Whadaya think guys?" > >"Welll.. um.. oh alright then. No one will mind. Who needs an NMI >anyway?" > >"And.. I can always give them one in an expensive and otherwise >useless piece of kit I've got a drawing of over here; I think I'll >call it 'The Messenger'..." > >"But..." > >"Never mind the buts. Think future. When that piece of kit will be >obsolete due to our liquidation, in another seven years people will be >queuing up to join a list of people who want to advovcate SAM >supremacy over all contenders by adding this liddle old ROM >development board over here, with this liddle drawing over there. Oh >god I'm good!" > >"Yeah..." > > > > > > >Bye, > >Dave Whitmore > > Well, it wasn't quite like that, it was more along the lines of:- Nev "Bruce! Why have you not debounced yon NMI button?" Bruce "Cos I don't think it needs it." Nev "But look, see - you get multiple NMI's pushing addresses on the stack" Bruce "But that wont be a problem, software can take care of that." Nev "Well don't say I never told you so". And that, as they say, was that. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 26 17:20:54 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: <48472dea.351a8cf4@aol.com> Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:14:26 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: SRAM CARD. Head Count Please. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 397 Lines: 14 In a message dated 25/03/98 23:49:07, you write: >> What, you mean the point of a debounced NMI? I would have thought that was >> simple - when developing software you often want to exit from what you are >> doing, a bouncy NMI is not a good thing to have to do the job. > >No, I think he means the point of the SRAM. > >Paul Well I think that has been covered plenty enough already. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 26 19:27:26 1998 X-Lotus-FromDomain: CASE TECHNOLOGY From: Justin_Skists@case.co.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Message-ID: <002565D3.0063E88E.00@notes_a.case.co.uk> Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 19:09:13 +0000 Subject: Hardware question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1251 Lines: 34 Hi. How long, effectively, can the expansion bus be before everything starts failing? Let me explain what I'm trying to do:- As some of you may know, I am venturing into the world of hardware projects on my SAM. The projects I have in mind need to co-exist with each other. [ I know these projects are duplicating the effort that Bob wants for the SAMson project, but I'm doing things the way I want them and I intend on learning a lot with it all! What do I learn by buying things already made? (Someone on here made me have this attitude, he told me that if I wanted an engineer's machine, then I should sell my SAM or build one. Sod that, I like my SAM. So, I'm turning my machine into an novice-engineer's machine. R4000 to come later....) ] Anyway, back to my query... I'm intending on putting these projects on a backplane type board with a simplified bus (with just the pins I feel like having). I guess I'm going to need some sort of buffering to protect the CPU, (any suggestions on how this should be done?), but the main question is this: I know the parallel signals aren't very good over long distances. But, what is the reasonably maximum the SAM's address/data bus can be run before the information is next to useless? Justin. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 26 19:54:17 1998 From: arivyyrl@aqverpg.pb.hx (Nev Young) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Hardware question Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 19:50:40 GMT Organization: Message-ID: <351bb05d.2010370@mail.enterprise.net> References: <002565D3.0063E88E.00@notes_a.case.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <002565D3.0063E88E.00@notes_a.case.co.uk> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 914 Lines: 24 On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 19:09:13 +0000, Justin_Skists@case.co.uk wrote: > Hi. > > > I know the parallel signals aren't very good over long distances. > But, what is the reasonably maximum the SAM's address/data > bus can be run before the information is next to useless? > Depends on what you're running the signals down. I've managed to get reasonable results from a ribbon cable of up to 20cm, but I think I was very lucky. There is very little drive from the Z80. If you can I would recommend you put buffer chips right on the expansion socket. You'll have problems with buffering the data lines though as, of course, these have to be bi-directional, but there is no signal from the Z80 side that can be used to select the direction. Instead you need to use the 'orrible dir line that Bruce didn't use on the Sam bus. Have fun. -- Nev - still at nevilley @ ndirect . co . uk but fighting the hordes of spam. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 26 20:59:26 1998 X-Lotus-FromDomain: ILGW @ C&L NL @ C&L INT @ C&L INT EXTERNAL@INTERLIANT @ OUTBOUND From: Stefan Drissen To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Message-ID: <862565D3.007177A6.00@Internet-504.interliant.com> Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 21:16:44 +0100 Subject: Re: Survey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1844 Lines: 42 >Hi Guys, > >As my new machine has a sound card, I've been trying to get SimCoupe to >squeak. Aley's demo player (saa.exe) seems to work OK, but using the same >driver SimCoupe stays stubbornly silent. I've checked the interface >to the TSR, and the registers are definitely being filled in and the TSR >called. This seems very familiar. :( SAA play works fine on my PC as well. On versions prior to 0.76 SIM Coupe would simply give some kind of fatal error and crash the PC (CTRL ALT DEL wouldn't work anymore). >Has anyone actually managed to get some sound out of SimCoupe v0.76? On v0.76 SIM Coupe will still crash when I run it in DOS mode. If however I open a DOS box in Win95 it sort of runs okay. Win95 actually reports some kind of fatal error, but allows SIM Coupe to keep running anyway. The SAA emulation then also works in SIM Coupe. However upon trying to shut SIM Coupe down, Win95 has a wobbly. >Allan Stefan -- **************************************** This document should only be read by those persons to whom it is addressed and is not intended to be relied upon by any person without subsequent written confirmation of its contents. Accordingly, Coopers & Lybrand disclaim all responsibility and accept no liability (including in negligence) for the consequences for any person acting, or refraining from acting, on such information prior to the receipt by those persons of subsequent written confirmation. If you have received this E-mail message in error, please notify us immediately by telephone. Please also destroy and delete the message from your computer. Any form of reproduction, dissemination, copying, disclosure, modification, distribution and/or publication of this E-mail message is strictly prohibited. **************************************** From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 26 23:37:17 1998 Message-Id: <199803262330.XAA25472@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Paul Walker Organization: very little To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 23:30:16 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: SRAM CARD. Head Count Please. In-reply-to: <48472dea.351a8cf4@aol.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 550 Lines: 14 > >No, I think he means the point of the SRAM. > Well I think that has been covered plenty enough already. It has if you were on the list, yes, but I don't think he was. Whoever asked the question, you have two choices at this point - wait for Bob to explain it to you, or ask Ian Collier for the address of the sam-users archives, since I can't remember it.. Paul -- ---- MicroSoft Windows - where do you want to crash today? ---- FidoNet: 2:254/60.11 2:442/103.13 ---> http://www.trak-one.co.uk/foti <--- From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 26 23:49:15 1998 From: Dean Liversidge To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 22:50:13 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: SRAM CARD. Head Count Please. In-reply-to: <2ca1da91.35181386@aol.com> Message-Id: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 411 Lines: 13 > From: BrenchleyR > >Any chance of an explination of what the SRAM CARD does please. > >Then i might commit myself. > Also thinking of adding a de-bounced NMI button if people would be > interested. A de-bounce circuit is and absolute requirement if any real use is to be got out of the NMI routines in the ROM, such a wait of stack space if it bounces. -- Dean Liversidge From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 26 23:49:15 1998 From: Dean Liversidge To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 23:37:37 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Survey In-reply-to: <862565D3.007177A6.00@Internet-504.interliant.com> Message-Id: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1454 Lines: 37 > From: "Stefan Drissen" > >Has anyone actually managed to get some sound out of SimCoupe v0.76? > On v0.76 SIM Coupe will still crash when I run it in DOS mode. If > however I open a DOS box in Win95 it sort of runs okay. Win95 > actually reports some kind of fatal error, but allows SIM Coupe to > keep running anyway. The SAA emulation then also works in SIM > Coupe. However upon trying to shut SIM Coupe down, Win95 has a > wobbly. I'm running Win98 at the mo', and i just thought is was 'cos its beta that made it crash at the end! It locks up for about 2 minutes while exiting, then comes up with a strange dialogue box: Unspecified Exception !!!!!!! @ CD3E:012A but I suppose the location isn't much help without a memeory map ?? I han't tried the SAA emulation yet, not got it from Aley's site yet. I've tried his Music Player and that wont work with my Gravis Ultrasound card, but it works fine with the on-board SoundPro chipset on my other machine, so SAA may also work. I've got a few sound cards that i could try when i get time, we'll see how thing go. The Speaker 'noise' sound terrible, i think an option in the GUI is needed to turn on/off the internal speaker, late night SAMing on the PC in a quiet house doesn't mix with PC speaker sound! One other 'little' thing to look at, when you bring in the GUI, the first click of the mouse isnt recognized. -- Dean Liversidge From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 27 01:25:30 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980326201146.006b5868@nessie-2.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie-2.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 20:11:46 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Hardware question In-Reply-To: <002565D3.0063E88E.00@notes_a.case.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 817 Lines: 18 >I know the parallel signals aren't very good over long distances. >But, what is the reasonably maximum the SAM's address/data >bus can be run before the information is next to useless? Well, IIRC, Martin had the SAM connected to peripherals using ribbon cable over about... oooh... 1 ft? The trick's in the grounding, and (preferably) in good termination of the lines. Also, you might want to watch the fan-out on the Z80 and the ASIC -- which is a useful piece of info that never made it into the technical manual :( Simon +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | "You know... you can tell someone's vain when they quote themselves | | in their own .sig file..." -- Simon Cooke | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 27 01:25:30 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980326201427.006b7fc4@nessie-2.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie-2.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 20:14:27 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SRAM CARD. Head Count Please. In-Reply-To: <51f0eb4e.351a8cbf@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 888 Lines: 28 At 12:13 PM 3/26/98 EST, you wrote: >Well, it wasn't quite like that, it was more along the lines of:- > >Nev "Bruce! Why have you not debounced yon NMI button?" > >Bruce "Cos I don't think it needs it." > >Nev "But look, see - you get multiple NMI's pushing addresses on the stack" > >Bruce "But that wont be a problem, software can take care of that." > >Nev "Well don't say I never told you so". > >And that, as they say, was that. Hmm.... problem is... He designed the +D, and the NMI worked fine on that... So, what happened between then and the SAM that made him change his mind? :) Simon +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | "You know... you can tell someone's vain when they quote themselves | | in their own .sig file..." -- Simon Cooke | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 27 01:25:35 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980326201241.006b547c@nessie-2.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie-2.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 20:12:41 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Hardware question In-Reply-To: <351bb05d.2010370@mail.enterprise.net> References: <002565D3.0063E88E.00@notes_a.case.co.uk> <002565D3.0063E88E.00@notes_a.case.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 579 Lines: 18 At 07:50 PM 3/26/98 GMT, you wrote: >direction. Instead you need to use the 'orrible dir line that Bruce >didn't use on the Sam bus. Ya sure about that? Hmmm... from what I can remember it was used, but not being anywhere in the vicinity of the UK or a SAMBUS, I can't check. :( Simon +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | "You know... you can tell someone's vain when they quote themselves | | in their own .sig file..." -- Simon Cooke | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 27 08:14:57 1998 From: Dean Liversidge To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 08:04:38 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Call for help! In-reply-to: <3.0.1.32.19980326114323.006a7564@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Message-Id: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 448 Lines: 17 > From: Simon Cooke > I can't get teledisk files into SAMDisk format using this machine. > Which is problematic. > > Therefore, if people have machines that can run teledisk, and are > willing to waste the time uploading them, can you: > > Turn the disks into DSK format for use on SIMCoupe, > and Zip them up. I'm sure I can sort them out for ya Si', let us know what you want to do. -- Dean Liversidge From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 27 08:24:04 1998 From: Dean Liversidge To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 08:14:42 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Hardware question In-reply-to: <3.0.1.32.19980326201241.006b547c@nessie-2.mcc.ac.uk> References: <351bb05d.2010370@mail.enterprise.net> Message-Id: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 491 Lines: 16 > From: Simon Cooke > >direction. Instead you need to use the 'orrible dir line that Bruce > >didn't use on the Sam bus. > > Ya sure about that? > > Hmmm... from what I can remember it was used, but not being anywhere > in the vicinity of the UK or a SAMBUS, I can't check. >From what i remember from 'reverse engineering' the SAMBUS, I sort of remember it wasn't used, but it was a long time ago, and i can't really remember. -- Dean Liversidge From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 27 10:45:30 1998 X-Lotus-FromDomain: CASE TECHNOLOGY From: Justin_Skists@case.co.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Message-ID: <002565D4.0036D6DC.00@notes_a.case.co.uk> Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 10:42:02 +0000 Subject: Re: Hardware question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1989 Lines: 52 To my question: >>I know the parallel signals aren't very good over long distances. >>But, what is the reasonably maximum the SAM's address/data >>bus can be run before the information is next to useless? Nev replied: >Depends on what you're running the signals down. Well, it's going to be a SRAM-type interface (128K or 512KFlash + 128K SRAM + a decent NMI + my paging circuit) with a through connector to my Quazar Surround card and another 32 line (my simplified I/O bus connecter) connector to a stripboard with a number of connecters that I will stick my other projects on. >I've managed to get reasonable results from a ribbon cable of up to >20cm, but I think I was very lucky. There is very little drive from >the Z80. If you can I would recommend you put buffer chips right on >the expansion socket. Any parts you recommend? >You'll have problems with buffering the data >lines though as, of course, these have to be bi-directional, but there >is no signal from the Z80 side that can be used to select the >direction. Instead you need to use the 'orrible dir line that Bruce >didn't use on the Sam bus. Yes. This has been worrying me a bit trying to understand it from the manual. I suppose I'd need to do some interesting boolean stuff with the RD and WR lines... At this point in juncture, none of my projects will write stuff directly to the SAM... (They can't, they only get the first 8 bits of the address bus to play with!) And Simon replied: >The trick's in the grounding, and (preferably) in good termination of the >lines. Grounding? Termination of the lines? >Also, you might want to watch the fan-out on the Z80 and the ASIC -- which >is a useful piece of info that never made it into the technical manual :( Blast! I left my fan-out table at home in Leicester. I can never remember whether it's 74LS or 74HC that has the best fan-out. And then, of course, is the delay... How long will the Z80 wait..? Argh!!! Z Too much to think about, 9999:1 Justin. From imc Fri Mar 27 11:08:07 1998 Subject: Re: Hardware question To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 11:08:07 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <002565D4.0036D6DC.00@notes_a.case.co.uk> from "Justin_Skists@case.co.uk" at Mar 27, 98 10:42:02 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 1112 Lines: 26 On Fri, 27 Mar 1998 10:42:02 +0000, Justin_Skists@case.co.uk said: > > If you can I would recommend you put buffer chips right on > >the expansion socket. > Any parts you recommend? Don't know the number, but there is a bi-directional 8-bit buffer you can use in the 74LS series. Shuold be obvious from any Maplin catalogue (except perhaps ones from the last couple of years). > Blast! I left my fan-out table at home in Leicester. I can never remember > whether it's 74LS or 74HC that has the best fan-out. Well since CMOS logic circuits draw no current to speak of from their inputs it's got to be the HC ones. Of course, you don't use CMOS logic (other than buffers) if you want to drive TTL circuits with them... > And then, of course, > is the delay... How long will the Z80 wait..? Argh!!! I believe that for IO instructions the Z80 asserts IORQ for two clock cycles (though I've left my timing diagrams at home), which would be 333ns. I think your average 74LS or 74HC chip takes 10-20ns to stabilise so there is plenty of time. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 27 12:06:16 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: <971451ec.351b91b0@aol.com> Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 06:46:54 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: SRAM CARD. More Details. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1625 Lines: 47 Taking into account notes on this list and some direct emails I've got the head-count up to 12 units at the moment. I still cannot give a price but things are shaping up like this. There will be two prices. One for list members and those who agree to assist in the ROM/DOS debug project, one for general sale (although I don't see many selling that way for a while - at least not until the debugged ROM/DOS has made some headway. The reason I can do tow prices is because I can pinch some parts from the stock set aside for repairs (which has all been paid for so long ago I'm not going to miss it). Below I list the parts required for the board. (s) = a stock item. Parts needed:- Board. 32KB Static Ram Chip. 74LS00 chip (s). 74LS02 chip (s). 64 way Euro connector (s). [see note 1] 28 pin chip holder (s). 2 x 14 pin chip holders (s). Switch, same as SAM on/off (s). Switch, same as SAM NMI. 6 x 1K Resistors (s). 2 x decoupling capacitors (s) Smoothing capacitor (s). Diode (s). 2 x Transistors (s) Note 1. This assumes the use of the standard 64 way connector which means you have to have a TWOup or SAMbus. A through connector option can be provided but at additional cost because the connector will have to be purchased. To list members who give a yes now (no firm commitment until price finalized) the price would be based on Maplin catalogue for those parts no-from-stock. Board price will be confirmed as soon as I know how many are interested - but for the moment I think we can work on it being less than 10ukp my target is 6ukp. I've been quoted 2ukp for assembly and testing. Hope this helps. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 27 12:14:34 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: <4c51dbc3.351b9644@aol.com> Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 07:06:27 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: SRAM CARD. Head Count Please. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 251 Lines: 17 In a message dated 27/03/98 03:13:15, you write: > >Hmm.... problem is... > >He designed the +D, and the NMI worked fine on that... > >So, what happened between then and the SAM that made him change his mind? > >:) > >Simon He got older? -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 27 12:15:23 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 07:06:29 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: SRAM CARD. Head Count Please. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 660 Lines: 22 In a message dated 27/03/98 00:33:47, you write: >> >No, I think he means the point of the SRAM. >> Well I think that has been covered plenty enough already. > >It has if you were on the list, yes, but I don't think he was. > >Whoever asked the question, you have two choices at this point - wait >for Bob to explain it to you, or ask Ian Collier for the address of >the sam-users archives, since I can't remember it.. > >Paul Bumbumbumbumbumbumbum... In fact BIG BUMS!!!! Sorry, but in downloading todays email I've corrupted some files and all my archives of SamUsers stuff is no-more.... So can I have that archive address as well please? -- Bob. From imc Fri Mar 27 12:20:42 1998 Subject: Re: Archives To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:20:42 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199803262330.XAA25472@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> from "Paul Walker" at Mar 26, 98 11:30:16 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 232 Lines: 7 On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 23:30:16 +0000, Paul Walker said: > ask Ian Collier for the address of > the sam-users archives, since I can't remember it.. In my personal disk collection, at the moment. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 27 17:45:00 1998 From: Matthew Craven Organization: UMIST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 17:34:32 BST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Head Count Please (without Re:) :) In-reply-to: <199803262330.XAA25472@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> References: <48472dea.351a8cf4@aol.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-ID: <865AF55F1@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 389 Lines: 12 > It has if you were on the list, yes, but I don't think he was. > > Whoever asked the question, you have two choices at this point - wait > for Bob to explain it to you, or ask Ian Collier for the address of > the sam-users archives, since I can't remember it.. > > Paul How long have you been discussing it for until now, then, as I have been on the list about 3-4 months. MJC. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 27 19:07:20 1998 Message-Id: <199803271825.SAA05035@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Paul Walker Organization: very little To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 18:25:17 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Head Count Please (without Re:) :) References: <199803262330.XAA25472@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> In-reply-to: <865AF55F1@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 465 Lines: 12 > How long have you been discussing it for until now, then, as I have > been on the list about 3-4 months. I think the initial arguments (sorry, discussions) were about a year ago now. The fact that it's only just getting towards being built gives you some idea of things. ;) Paul -- ---- MicroSoft Windows - where do you want to crash today? ---- FidoNet: 2:254/60.11 2:442/103.13 ---> http://www.trak-one.co.uk/foti <--- From imc Fri Mar 27 19:10:14 1998 Subject: Re: Head Count Please (without Re:) :) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 19:10:14 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199803271825.SAA05035@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> from "Paul Walker" at Mar 27, 98 06:25:17 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 201 Lines: 7 On Fri, 27 Mar 1998 18:25:17 +0000, Paul Walker said: > I think the initial arguments (sorry, discussions) were about a year > ago now. No. The initial argument was in October 1996. HTH HAND imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 27 19:37:12 1998 From: Matthew Craven Organization: UMIST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 19:34:00 BST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Head Count Please (without Re:) :) In-reply-to: <199803271825.SAA05035@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> References: <865AF55F1@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-ID: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 529 Lines: 15 > I think the initial arguments (sorry, discussions) were about a year > ago now. The fact that it's only just getting towards being built > gives you some idea of things. ;) Hmmm.. so it seems progress has been slow :) Actually, I'm just remembering how great the bouncing NMI was. Sounds like a fairytale: The Adventures of Sam and the Bouncing NMI. Sorry - off topic completely :) The bouncing NMI was good, as it meant the SAM was comparable with PC's, i.e. it crashed about as often - or at least I found that. MJC. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 27 20:08:53 1998 From: davewhitmore@enterprise.net (Dave) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Survey Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 19:59:39 GMT Message-ID: <351ba697.35831260@mail.enterprise.net> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 644 Lines: 19 On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:44:41 +0000 (GMT), you wrote: >Hi Guys, > >As my new machine has a sound card, I've been trying to get SimCoupe to >squeak. Aley's demo player (saa.exe) seems to work OK, but using the same >driver SimCoupe stays stubbornly silent. I've checked the interface >to the TSR, and the registers are definitely being filled in and the TSR >called. > >Has anyone actually managed to get some sound out of SimCoupe v0.76? > Yes, and whereas it ran too slow under the previous version, it's too fast with v0.76. I used the game 'Boing!' to check this. Bye, Dave Whitmore http://homepages.enterprise.net/davewhitmore/INDEX.HTM From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 27 20:54:04 1998 From: arivyyrl@aqverpg.pb.hx (Nev Young) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Hardware question Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 20:48:14 GMT Organization: Message-ID: <35210bf6.4949273@mail.enterprise.net> References: <351bb05d.2010370@mail.enterprise.net> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1333 Lines: 33 On Fri, 27 Mar 1998 08:14:42 +0000, "Dean Liversidge" wrote: > > From: Simon Cooke > > >direction. Instead you need to use the 'orrible dir line that Bruce > > >didn't use on the Sam bus. > > > > Ya sure about that? > > > > Hmmm... from what I can remember it was used, but not being anywhere > > in the vicinity of the UK or a SAMBUS, I can't check. > > >From what i remember from 'reverse engineering' the SAMBUS, I sort of > remember it wasn't used, but it was a long time ago, and i can't > really remember. > Right. The line exists on all the connectors of the sambus. It does not appear anywhere withing the sam. The idea of it was to set the direction of the data buffer chip on the sam bus but instead the chip was left out altogether. Instead every device the can write to the Z80 is supposed to drive the line low (it's open collector). Most devices have a buffer chip, eg 74HTC245, and the signal that drives this will be the one passed out to the dir line, via an isolating diode. The sambus would have been much better if Bruce had put it on. A lot of things would have been better if Bruce had done ... Old Chinese saying. It is easy to improve sombody else's work. -- Nev - still at nevilley @ ndirect . co . uk but fighting the hordes of spam. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Mar 28 02:04:02 1998 Message-Id: <199803280006.AAA13915@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Paul Walker Organization: very little To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no, Enigma@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 00:06:06 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Mailing lists X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 516 Lines: 18 Hi All, Er .. slightly off-topic, I know, but is there anyone out there who has a permanently connected mail server, and who is willing to host a mailing list? Wouldn't have to maintain it, I'm sure someone else would do that, just host it. (At last count, 500 subscribers, and a throughput of about 7-8 megs/day.) Thanks, Paul -- ---- MicroSoft Windows - where do you want to crash today? ---- FidoNet: 2:254/60.11 2:442/103.13 ---> http://www.trak-one.co.uk/foti <--- From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Mar 28 02:04:02 1998 Message-Id: <199803280024.AAA15725@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Paul Walker Organization: very little To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 00:23:48 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Head Count Please (without Re:) :) In-reply-to: <199803271910.TAA12946@chalca.comlab.ox.ac.uk> References: <199803271825.SAA05035@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> from "Paul Walker" at Mar 27, 98 06:25:17 pm X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 365 Lines: 11 > > I think the initial arguments (sorry, discussions) were about a year > > ago now. > No. The initial argument was in October 1996. HTH HAND Ah. Even longer than I thought.. Paul -- ---- MicroSoft Windows - where do you want to crash today? ---- FidoNet: 2:254/60.11 2:442/103.13 ---> http://www.trak-one.co.uk/foti <--- From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Mar 28 12:20:03 1998 From: Dean Liversidge To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 11:26:03 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Time to smile In-reply-to: <002565D4.0036D6DC.00@notes_a.case.co.uk> Message-Id: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 106 Lines: 9 > From: Justin_Skists@case.co.uk > Z Too much to think about, 9999:1 :-) -- Dean Liversidge From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Mar 28 12:20:05 1998 From: Dean Liversidge To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 11:53:19 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Mailing lists In-reply-to: <199803280006.AAA13915@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> Message-Id: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1055 Lines: 30 > From: "Paul Walker" > > Er .. slightly off-topic, I know, but is there anyone out there who > has a permanently connected mail server, and who is willing to host > a mailing list? Wouldn't have to maintain it, I'm sure someone else > would do that, just host it. > > (At last count, 500 subscribers, and a throughput of about 7-8 > megs/day.) > Let me check out a few things with our sister company, which is an ISP.... I sort of run our email server/router and i would think it's possible, but i really need to get clearance from them first, plus i'm not that up on linux, so don't know as yet what to set up on the server. I suppose i could set myself a new account name for the lest and leave pmail running on my NT4 machine at work, it's permenantly swithched on for administering the network just incase anything fails, so it's on a UPS any all that crap..... hmmmmmmm..... One thing though, if there will be that many subscribers, would it not be better to set up a newsgroup?? -- Dean Liversidge From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Mar 28 12:20:05 1998 From: Dean Liversidge To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 11:57:33 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Hardware question In-reply-to: <199803271108.LAA02662@chalca.comlab.ox.ac.uk> References: <002565D4.0036D6DC.00@notes_a.case.co.uk> from "Justin_Skists@case.co.uk" at Mar 27, 98 10:42:02 am Message-Id: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 754 Lines: 21 > From: Ian Collier > > Don't know the number, but there is a bi-directional 8-bit buffer > you can use in the 74LS series. Shuold be obvious from any Maplin > catalogue (except perhaps ones from the last couple of years). > > > Blast! I left my fan-out table at home in Leicester. I can never remember > > whether it's 74LS or 74HC that has the best fan-out. > > Well since CMOS logic circuits draw no current to speak of from > their inputs it's got to be the HC ones. Of course, you don't use > CMOS logic (other than buffers) if you want to drive TTL circuits > with them... Try 74HCT then, there TTL level compatable, saves the pull up/down, resistors. 74HCT245 Transceiver 74HCT244 Driver -- Dean Liversidge From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Mar 28 12:20:06 1998 From: Dean Liversidge To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 11:53:19 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Hardware question In-reply-to: <35210bf6.4949273@mail.enterprise.net> References: Message-Id: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1186 Lines: 33 > From: arivyyrl@aqverpg.pb.hx (Nev Young) > > > Right. The line exists on all the connectors of the sambus. It does > not appear anywhere withing the sam. The idea of it was to set the > direction of the data buffer chip on the sam bus but instead the > chip was left out altogether. Instead every device the can write to > the Z80 is supposed to drive the line low (it's open collector). > Most devices have a buffer chip, eg 74HTC245, and the signal that > drives this will be the one passed out to the dir line, via an > isolating diode. > > The sambus would have been much better if Bruce had put it on. > A lot of things would have been better if Bruce had done ... Yeah, thats right, just blew the dust of my old scematics, the SAMBUS only buffered the Address Lines, and Control Lines, it didn't do anything at all with the Data Lines, so no directional control, and ready for overload city! And he messed up the clock address selection, so it was adressable in 8 memory sections, not just the one! Never mind, eh! Talking of clocks, which you wernt, but i did ;-) Why didn't the DOS use the DayOfTheWeek option on the clock chip??? -- Dean Liversidge From imc Sat Mar 28 22:59:04 1998 Subject: Re: Hardware question To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 22:59:04 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Dean Liversidge" at Mar 28, 98 11:57:33 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 450 Lines: 12 On Sat, 28 Mar 1998 11:57:33 +0000, Dean Liversidge said: > > Of course, you don't use > > CMOS logic (other than buffers) if you want to drive TTL circuits > > with them... > Try 74HCT then, there TTL level compatable The output current is still the same. My point was that CMOS devices except buffers don't have the power to drive TTL devices. This holds whether they are 4000s, 74HCs or 74HCTs. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Mar 29 02:29:23 1998 From: Dean Liversidge To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 01:18:15 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Year 2000, already ?? In-reply-to: References: Message-Id: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 423 Lines: 14 > From: Peter Harkess > To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no > Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 07:56:42 +0000 I don't mean to go on about Dates of e-mails, or get into any sort of discussion about Amiga mail software, but this is the message is even more futeristic that the last two message from Peter. This realy does mess email software around ! :-) -- Dean Liversidge From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Mar 29 22:38:53 1998 Message-Id: <9803292126.AA29628@mars.cableol.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Neil Maynard To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 22:28:56 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: The Show X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 103 Lines: 7 Please can someone give me directions on how to get to the show on Saturday ?? Thanks Neil Maynard From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Mar 30 15:05:20 1998 From: Matthew Craven Organization: UMIST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 14:48:00 BST Subject: Re: The Show X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.31 Message-ID: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 131 Lines: 6 > Please can someone give me directions on how to get to the show on > Saturday ?? Aren't they on Stewart Skardon's page? MJC. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Mar 30 18:26:01 1998 X-Lotus-FromDomain: POSTMASTER From: Samsboss@postmaster.co.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Message-ID: <802565D7.005F513F.00@uks.postmaster.co.uk> Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 17:21:09 +0000 Subject: Re: The Show Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 328 Lines: 19 | Please can someone give me directions on how to get to the show on | Saturday ?? | | | Thanks | | Neil Maynard >From where in this fair land are you coming from? -- Samsboss - The One And Only. Accept No Others. ___________________________________ To sign up for a free email account, visit http://www.postmaster.co.uk. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Mar 30 19:53:53 1998 From: Matthew Craven Organization: UMIST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 19:45:13 BST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: The Show In-reply-to: <802565D7.005F513F.00@uks.postmaster.co.uk> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-ID: <5EC0E04E6@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 170 Lines: 9 From where in this fair land are you coming from? > > -- > Samsboss - The One And Only. > Accept No Others. How about directions from Manchester for me as well? MJC. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Mar 30 22:17:11 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 16:05:56 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Gloucester Show and chat. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 540 Lines: 15 Last call for the Gloucester show on Saturday 4th April. Colin McD has suggested, as a way of keeping people out of the pub during the afternoon, that we use part of the back room for a general discussion session along the lines of "The Future of Z80 Computing." So, anyone wishing to chat on said subject, which includes but is not exclusive to the Samson project, please feel welcome. [all people will be searched for weapons on entry and I will not be held liable for any deaths that occur :) ] See lots of you on Saturday. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Mar 30 23:17:33 1998 Message-Id: <9803302210.AA06192@mars.cableol.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Neil Maynard To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 23:13:14 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: The Show In-Reply-To: <802565D7.005F513F.00@uks.postmaster.co.uk> X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 452 Lines: 28 On 30 Mar 98 at 17:21, Samsboss@postmaster.co.uk wrote: > > > > | Please can someone give me directions on how to get to the show on > | Saturday ?? > | > | > | Thanks > | > | Neil Maynard > > From where in this fair land are you coming from? > > -- > Samsboss - The One And Only. > Accept No Others. > ___________________________________ > To sign up for a free email account, visit http://www.postmaster.co.uk. > > > Cardiff Neil Maynard From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Mar 31 15:14:14 1998 Message-Id: From: Dan Doore Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 12:45:54 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Gloucester Showtime MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT X-Mailer: TFS Gateway /310000000/310102093/310102123/310460310/ X-Engine: "TFS Engine Release 3.12 Build 101" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 353 Lines: 11 Gents, can we have a quick round-up of who will be attending the Gloucester Piss^H^H^H^H Show this Friday. I will be in attendance, look out for the tramp in the Calvin & Hobbes T-shirt who will trying to blag Anne-Marie into giving me a free cake :) Dan. Work: dan@bacg.com Shirk: dan@podboy.demon.co.uk VVeb: http://www.podboy.demon.co.uk/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Mar 31 18:50:15 1998 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Gloucester Show and chat. References: X-Mammoth-Status: Aware X-{giggle}: Lots! From: The Giggler Date: 31 Mar 1998 18:19:10 +0100 In-Reply-To: BrenchleyR's message of "Mon, 30 Mar 1998 16:05:56 EST" Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.66/Emacs 19.34 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 871 Lines: 31 BrenchleyR writes: > Last call for the Gloucester show on Saturday 4th April. Erm, sorry no can do, some of us lazy students do _actually_ have jobs :( > Colin McD has suggested, as a way of keeping people out of the pub during the > afternoon You serious? Colin McD suggested staying out of the pub, maybe it was just so he does go all faint and buy a round again ;) > , that we use part of the back room for a general discussion session > along the lines of "The Future of Z80 Computing." Seriously though sounds like a good idea, sorry I can't be there as hopefully I shall be resurrecting my SAM from the wardrobe later this year ... > [all people will be searched for weapons on entry and I will not be > held liable for any deaths that occur :) ] {giggle} > See lots of you on Saturday. Oo-bloody-er 8) Lee. -- Yawn And Walk North From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Mar 31 20:26:17 1998 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 19:18:45 +0100 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Graham Goring Subject: Re: Gloucester Showtime In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Trial Version 3.03a <8OHKkEUpoELRXgFKFsA4hwDBr8> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 615 Lines: 17 In message , Dan Doore writes >Gents, can we have a quick round-up of who will be attending the >Gloucester Piss^H^H^H^H Show this Friday. > >I will be in attendance, look out for the tramp in the Calvin & Hobbes >T-shirt who will trying to blag Anne-Marie into giving me a free cake :) Count me in too! Only I have to cancel a barbers appointment... Graham -- "But they're so tasty! Like chocolate, only with flatulence!" Come! See a blank page full of well meant promises that will never be fulfilled! http://duketastrophy.demon.co.uk From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Mar 31 20:26:17 1998 From: arivyyrl@aqverpg.pb.hx (Nev Young) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Gloucester Showtime Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 18:40:03 GMT Organization: Message-ID: <352237b1.538048@mail.enterprise.net> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 449 Lines: 14 On Tue, 31 Mar 1998 12:45:54 +0000, Dan Doore wrote: > Gents, can we have a quick round-up of who will be attending the > Gloucester Piss^H^H^H^H Show this Friday. > > I will be in attendance, look out for the tramp in the Calvin & Hobbes > T-shirt who will trying to blag Anne-Marie into giving me a free cake :) > I'll be there. Beth won't. -- Nev - still at nevilley @ ndirect . co . uk but fighting the hordes of spam. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Mar 31 20:26:17 1998 From: arivyyrl@aqverpg.pb.hx (Nev Young) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Gloucester Show and chat. Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 18:40:05 GMT Organization: Message-ID: <352337ea.594534@mail.enterprise.net> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 496 Lines: 16 On Mon, 30 Mar 1998 16:05:56 EST, BrenchleyR wrote: > Last call for the Gloucester show on Saturday 4th April. > > So, anyone wishing to chat on said subject, which includes but is not > exclusive to the Samson project, please feel welcome. [all people will be > searched for weapons on entry and I will not be held liable for any deaths > that occur :) ] > Will we be searched for beer ? -- Nev - still at nevilley @ ndirect . co . uk but fighting the hordes of spam. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Mar 31 21:50:55 1998 Message-ID: <35206FCA.5311@postmaster.co.uk> Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 20:23:38 -0800 From: David Ledbury Organization: The Foundation for Green Eggs & Ham X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: SAM to Spec Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 99 Lines: 6 Quick question, Anyone know of anyway to convert SAM Code files back across to the Plus D? David