From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Jan 2 19:37:30 1997 Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 19:35:17 GMT Message-Id: <199701021935.TAA11045@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Has anyone stopped partying? From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no, sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 138 Lines: 7 The last message on my system is dated the 30th, the previous one was dated the 24th. Where is everyone? Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Jan 2 20:01:53 1997 Message-Id: <199701021947.UAA06352@mailserv.caiw.nl> From: Robert van der Veeke To: sam-users Cc: sam-users Subject: Re: Has anyone stopped partying? Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 20:47:06 +0100 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 807 Lines: 24 > Van: Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com > Aan: sam-users@nvg.unit.no > CC: sam-users@nvg.unit.no; sam-users@nvg.unit.no > Onderwerp: Has anyone stopped partying? > Datum: Thursday, January 02, 1997 8:35 > > The last message on my system is dated the 30th, the previous one was dated > the 24th. > > Where is everyone? > How about a quick reaction then. I am going to party at the Shinnenkai (New years party) in London, watching anime all day, spending hard earned money on anime-CD's and video's. As for new year itself it was a freezing -16C that night, party? Hope to see ya all back on the list on the 6th of january. Robert van der Veeke, aka RJV Graphics [rjvveeke@caiw.nl] Hokay, you plurps! Stan by your pots! Which one o' you plurps is sittin on my eye? --- Jetman --- From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Jan 2 21:32:56 1997 Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 21:07:23 +0000 (GMT) From: Si Owen To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Has anyone stopped partying? In-Reply-To: <199701021935.TAA11045@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> Message-Id: Organisation: Wordcraft International Ltd. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 732 Lines: 20 On Thu, 2 Jan 1997 samsboss@uk.pipeline.com wrote: > The last message on my system is dated the 30th, the previous one was dated > the 24th. > > Where is everyone? All still a bit tipsy I expect... Still, it does make a change not to have to spend an hour sifting through messages containing arguments and insults *:^) Si /------------------------------------+----------------------------------------\ | Si Owen | Home: si@obobo.demon.co.uk | | Wordcraft International Ltd, UK | Work: sowen@wordcraft.co.uk | | Fax: +44-1332-295525 | WWW: www.obobo.demon.co.uk | \------------------------------------+----------------------------------------/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Jan 2 21:57:24 1997 Message-Id: <32CC2EFE.2B83@ndirect.co.uk> Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 21:56:14 +0000 From: Neville Young X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Has anyone stopped partying? References: <199701021935.TAA11045@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 236 Lines: 14 Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com wrote: > > The last message on my system is dated the 30th, the previous one was dated > the 24th. > > Where is everyone? > > > Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com Hey man I'm not here! Floating on planet prozac FB. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 6 13:10:24 1997 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 13:13:31 +0000 Subject: SOS: Basic Syntax Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <31CAC197197@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 385 Lines: 9 Yeh, that's another thing. I personally enjoy using more than just one variable letter for arrays and stuff. Stuff like xzx() should be allowed for the SAMSON. Or is it already? Maybe I'm confused. I just can't ever recall seeing something like DIM joe(90) working on my SAM. Maybe I just never tried it. Ho hum. __ |_)ave |-|ooper From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 6 13:26:08 1997 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 13:29:23 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS: Basic Syntax Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <31CEF830894@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 484 Lines: 12 Hmmm, it doesn't look like my other one got through. In reply to Ian Collier: The LOCAL xx() syntax might have failed because (I think) SAM Basic doesn't allow more than single-letter arrays. SO I guess the bug is really that the syntax checker let it slip through when in terms of SAM Basic it wasn't syntactically correct. LOCAL x() should work fine. I'm probably talking arse tho', cause I've not tried it. __ |_)ave |-|ooper From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 6 13:29:42 1997 Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 14:28:44 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9701061328.AA03827@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SOS: Basic Syntax X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 464 Lines: 15 > > Yeh, that's another thing. > I personally enjoy using more than just one variable letter for > arrays and stuff. > Stuff like xzx() should be allowed for the SAMSON. > Or is it already? Maybe I'm confused. I just can't ever recall seeing > something like DIM joe(90) working on my SAM. Maybe I just never > tried it. Ho hum. You are mixing it up with the spectrum. You can have arrays up to 10 characters on the sam. -Frode PS: Happy new year folks! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 6 13:56:04 1997 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 13:59:16 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS: Basic Syntax Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <31D6F706A41@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 285 Lines: 9 > You are mixing it up with the spectrum. > You can have arrays up to 10 characters on the sam. Yeh, I think you're right. I'm sure there was /something/ tho' Maybe string arrays, eg, DIM guitar$(6), doesn't work. __ |_)ave |-|ooper From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 6 14:08:25 1997 Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 15:07:55 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9701061407.AA04333@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SOS: Basic Syntax X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 406 Lines: 14 > > > You are mixing it up with the spectrum. > > You can have arrays up to 10 characters on the sam. > > Yeh, I think you're right. > > I'm sure there was /something/ tho' > Maybe string arrays, eg, DIM guitar$(6), doesn't work. The same restrictions apply to string arrays. Though, if they get big, you might run out of memory. ;) There is also an upper limit of 64K somewhere in there.... -Frode From imc Mon Jan 6 14:48:18 1997 Subject: Re: SOS: Basic Syntax To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 14:48:18 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <31CEF830894@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> from "Dave Hooper" at Jan 6, 97 01:29:23 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 751 Lines: 28 On Mon, 6 Jan 1997 13:29:23 +0000, Dave Hooper said: > In reply to Ian Collier: > The LOCAL xx() syntax might have failed because (I think) SAM Basic > doesn't allow more than single-letter arrays. Frode has already mentioned that this is incorrect (note, anyway, that I was already successfully using the xx() variable, which is why I wanted to LOCAL it. :-) ). I have since discovered that you can in fact have local arrays. There are two ways to do it. 1. Don't put the array last on the command line. That is, LOCAL a,b,fred() says "Not understood", while LOCAL fred(),a,b works OK. 2. Use unmatched parentheses. Amazingly, the following line is accepted as valid syntax and works no problem. LOCAL xx(,fred( imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 7 18:45:20 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <19590.199701071843@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Oi! To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 18:43:47 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 343 Lines: 12 Oi! Why's this place so quiet? What happened to the SOS, after? Bob's announced it (more or less) in Format, so I assume that you lot managed to agree on /something/. Anyone want to tell me what it is? Er - if it's the university mail servers playing up again, and the mail is going one way, can someone netmail me at 2:440/410.6...? Paul From imc Tue Jan 7 18:55:23 1997 Subject: Re: Oi! To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 18:55:23 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <19590.199701071843@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> from "Mr P R Walker" at Jan 7, 97 06:43:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 238 Lines: 11 On Tue, 7 Jan 1997 18:43:47 +0000 (GMT), Mr P R Walker said: > Oi! > > Why's this place so quiet? It just is, OK? Coincidentally, everyone shut up just after I posted my first message of 1997 yesterday about the LOCAL mystery... imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Jan 8 11:16:37 1997 Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 11:13:03 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@napier.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Oi! In-Reply-To: <19590.199701071843@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1110 Lines: 31 On Tue, 7 Jan 1997, Mr P R Walker wrote: > Oi! > > Why's this place so quiet? *Phew* I thought it was me not resubscribing properly! BTW, I'm back from my hols in the midst of a rotten flu and exams! *groan* Did you miss me? > What happened to the SOS, after? Bob's announced it (more or less) in Format, Cool.. What was the response? Anyway.. I never did get around to doing much SAM stuff over the hols. I couldn't get ANSI C working on Pro-DOS properly. But programs compiled on a PC CP/M simulator works fine on SAM/Pro-DOS so we DO have a Z80 backed C compiler. Just rewriting one of the object files (which I've sort of done) I can't see why the resulting object code won't work in the naked SAM. -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Jan 10 18:24:48 1997 Message-Id: <199701101822.TAA17829@mailserv.caiw.nl> From: Robert van der Veeke To: Sam users Subject: Where is everybody? Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 19:22:21 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 301 Lines: 10 Hey it's the 10th of january, where is everybody? Still asleep or something like that? Partytime is over you know, back to work and study :-)~ Robert van der Veeke, aka RJV Graphics [rjvveeke@caiw.nl] Hokay, you plurps! Stan by your pots! Which one o' you plurps is sittin on my eye? --- Jetman --- From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Jan 10 18:31:08 1997 Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 18:29:52 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Paveley To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Where is everybody? In-Reply-To: <199701101822.TAA17829@mailserv.caiw.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 608 Lines: 16 On Fri, 10 Jan 1997, Robert van der Veeke wrote: > Hey it's the 10th of january, where is everybody? Still asleep or something > like that? Hmm, well sam-users email address seems to have changed, dunno if that's affected it, but then I got your message okay. I did send a mail a couple of days ago to the list, and that never seemed to get through... Tim ....@/ .........................................................................@/ Unc - Tim Paveley - http://dplinux.sund.ac.uk/~unc/ Staff of the Monochrome BBS - http://www.mono.org/ Owner of a Sam Coupe - http://www.mono.org/~unc/Coupe/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Jan 10 22:36:21 1997 From: "SL. Harding" Message-Id: <199701102234.WAA09046@irix.bris.ac.uk> Subject: SOS Functional procedures[ To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no (sam users) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 22:34:23 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1481 Lines: 43 Aha, I'm back too. Aha, I also get to re-start the first serious SOS type discussion in this, the year of the SAM. For thoes who can't remember back past the drinking games of christmas, we ended thinking about functional procedures. We wanted a short program held in a procedure like structure that can be called as a function from within any PRINT, LET, IF, etc. I now beleve that it would make most sense to use a DEF FN based structure rather than a DEF PROC based one. Ian's idea of identifying the difference between a nomal function and a 'procedural' one by the ommision of the = sign on the declarations line is a sound one. As I see it, there is one more major distinction that must be made, and that is the distinction between allowing any number of 'RETURN' statements thoughout the function, or forcing a single RETURN statement at the end. I would go for forcing one at the end, it would make it more withstricting but would make it easier for the machine to check. 10 DEF FN boo(x) 20 IF x THEN LET out$="BOOOOO!": ELSE LET out$="" 30 END FN RETURN out$ or, 10 DEF FN boo(x) 20 IF x THEN RETURN "BOOOOO!": ELSE RETURN "" 30 END FN We could always allow both I surpose. How about forcing a '$' on the end of all FNs that return strings? i.e. the example cannot be called bob(x) but must be bob$(x)? Would we want to call them using the demanding syntax of a normal function? PRINT FN boo(1) I have always thought this looks nasty. Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Jan 10 22:56:46 1997 From: "SL. Harding" Message-Id: <199701102253.WAA09316@irix.bris.ac.uk> Subject: SAMslider To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no (sam users) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 22:53:39 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 396 Lines: 18 Just a quicky... ZX ## -> ZX Speccys; ZX Speccys -> Quantum Leap So semi-logically... SAMcoupe -> SAMslider !!! We could always twist this to make it less obvious, go gack to naming it after a vehicle... SAMcoupe -> SAMglider ~ As our WIMP will be as smooth as a glider! Its as powerfull and flawless as the wind! SAMSON is NOT a practical release name, but a fine working one. Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Jan 10 23:51:26 1997 From: "SL. Harding" Message-Id: <199701102347.XAA10126@irix.bris.ac.uk> Subject: My serious problem. To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 23:47:48 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <2D49E722B70@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> from "Johnna Teare" at Dec 18, 96 05:29:34 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1639 Lines: 36 > So what's everybody ordeing themselves for Christmas this year then? > (sam wise I mean, I don't want to know about slippers and stuff...!) > Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) My SAMs keyboard underlays problems finaly developed further than the 'AHHhhhh my cursor keys don't work... Phew they fixed themselves!' stage. Being a stupid bloke I did not order a replacement until the 'qwert' section completely died, and being just after chrismas the replacement underlay had not arrived when I moved to my term-time address this morning so am stuck for at least a week with no 'qwert' row, cursors or control key! i.e. NO SAM it's a bit hard to re-program your keyboard without an 'e' key! ~~~~~~ Does any one know of a tempory bodge to squeeze a little more life from the old one? The problem is right where one of the 'connect to the keyboard' type strips bits bends as it comes from the main 'detect the keypresses' bit. The 'crack' is just in the surface, just deep enough to break the connections. PLEASE HELP ME! numb. Wow! I have written 3 messages to this list in a row, feel that bandwidth grow! Be warned, on monday or so I intend to post one or two suggestions for new commands, functionaly and software archetecture including a whole new, very powerful DOS concept. It will take me until monday bring myself to type it in again, this time on one of these horrible PC things. Give me my SAM keyboard anyday, even if I have to put up with crappy alien PC ftp programs. Numbly> Waiting for someone to say that it is just cos I am using BASH Frode> Now, if you had used bash....errr ; ) I do actually! :o) numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Jan 11 09:59:48 1997 Date: Sat, 11 Jan 97 09:55:41 UT From: Robert Wood Message-Id: To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: SAM for sale :-( Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 775 Lines: 37 Times are tough and I regrettably have to sell my trusty SAM :(. Listed below are all the bits and gadgets I have accumulated, Please make me an offer by return email. Robert Wood, Rob_G_Wood@msn.com. HARDWARE SAM Coupe Original model with 512K memory upgrade and updated ROM, 3.5" floppy Technical Manual Ver 3.0 Users Guide (1989 Version) SAM Sound Sampler SAM Interface (Printer) SAM Messenger SOFTWARE Outwrite word processor Master DOS 2.1 SAM sequencer ver 1.0 and 2.0 LERM SAM Assembler ver 2.0 Flash! GAMES Prince of Persia Sphera DISC MAGAZINES News letters 1 to 5 FRED 3, 4, 6, 7 ,8 ,10, 11a&b, 14 Enceladus 2, 3, 4 & 5 BOOKS ZX Spectrum Micro Guide Spectrum machine language for the absolute beginner Supercharge your spectrum Machine code for beginners From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Jan 11 12:18:18 1997 Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 12:17:16 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Wells <93tgw@eng.cam.ac.uk> To: sam users Subject: Re: SOS Functional procedures[ In-Reply-To: <199701102234.WAA09046@irix.bris.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2389 Lines: 57 On Fri, 10 Jan 1997, SL. Harding wrote: > We wanted a short program held in a procedure like structure that can be > called as a function from within any PRINT, LET, IF, etc. > > I now beleve that it would make most sense to use a DEF FN based structure > rather than a DEF PROC based one. Ian's idea of identifying the difference > between a nomal function and a 'procedural' one by the ommision of the = > sign on the declarations line is a sound one. To put that another way, it would be the extension of a DEF FN statement to multiple lines, a bit like long/short IF. > As I see it, there is one more major distinction that must be made, and > that is the distinction between allowing any number of 'RETURN' statements > thoughout the function, or forcing a single RETURN statement at the end. I > would go for forcing one at the end, it would make it more withstricting > but would make it easier for the machine to check. [Examples snipped] Given that the function ends at the END FN, it makes sense to restrict the location of the value returning bit to the end there. I don't think the keyword RETURN is the best to use in this situation though. (Given its other usage). The BBC just had an =out$ (or equivalent) at the end, but that's not too brilliant either. Something better might be: ... 50 END FN = out$ I'm not convinced of this though. > How about forcing a '$' on the end of all FNs that return strings? i.e. the > example cannot be called bob(x) but must be bob$(x)? That's the case already I think. > Would we want to call them using the demanding syntax of a normal function? > PRINT FN boo(1) > I have always thought this looks nasty. Why does it look nasty, & how is it demanding? Mind you, the brackets around the arguments do make it different to all the other SAM commands. Wasn't so bad on the Spectrum, where it was a fairly unique construct, but now we have PROCs as well. I think the FN would still be necessary however, to distinguish your function name from a variable. (Unlike PROCs, where a name at the start of a statement can't be a variable). A possible argument for changing procedure calling to PROC xyz instead of just xyz. Tim. PS. Something someone else mentioned to me over Christmas - On the Spectrum, it was possible to create a DEF FN which calculated factorials recursively. This appears not to work any longer on the SAM. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Jan 11 14:51:52 1997 From: "SL. Harding" Message-Id: <199701111450.OAA19166@irix.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS Functional procedures To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 14:50:06 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Tim Wells" at Jan 11, 97 12:17:16 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1916 Lines: 47 > To put that another way, it would be the extension of a DEF FN statement > to multiple lines, a bit like long/short IF. > Given that the function ends at the END FN, it makes sense to restrict the > location of the value returning bit to the end there. I don't think the > keyword RETURN is the best to use in this situation though. (Given its > other usage). The BBC just had an =out$ (or equivalent) at the end, but > that's not too brilliant either. Something better might be: > ... > 50 END FN = out$ > I'm not convinced of this though. > I thought... 50 END FN RETURN out$ Would make it clearest to the user. You "end the function and return a value out$". Incidently, a normal function... DEF FN out(x)=5*x^2 Could be implemented my the sytem as if it was written... DEF FN out(x): END FN RETURN 5*x^2 > > How about forcing a '$' on the end of all FNs that return strings? i.e. the > > example cannot be called bob(x) but must be bob$(x)? > That's the case already I think. > So why did no one complain about my initial naming then? I was just tying up the loose end. > > Would we want to call them using the demanding syntax of a normal function? > > PRINT FN boo(1) > > I have always thought this looks nasty. > Why does it look nasty, & how is it demanding? > Mind you, the brackets around the arguments do make it different to all > the other SAM commands. Wasn't so bad on the Spectrum, where it was a > fairly unique construct, but now we have PROCs as well. I think the FN > would still be necessary however, to distinguish your function name from > a variable. (Unlike PROCs, where a name at the start of a statement can't > be a variable). A possible argument for changing procedure calling to PROC > xyz instead of just xyz. > It would be a commonly used structure, having a line with lots FN commands would look messy and be a pain to type, but, as you say it is neccesary. > Tim numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Jan 11 15:34:54 1997 Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 15:33:58 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Wells <93tgw@eng.cam.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SOS Functional procedures In-Reply-To: <199701111450.OAA19166@irix.bris.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 645 Lines: 19 On Sat, 11 Jan 1997, SL. Harding wrote: > I thought... > 50 END FN RETURN out$ > Would make it clearest to the user. You "end the function and return a value > out$". Yes, I see your reasoning. I just wasn't sure about the use of RETURN in the two different contexts - returning after GOSUB, and here returning a value. There is also the thing that a function has to return a value, so having to put END FN RETURN at the end of all of your functions is a little excessive. You could perhaps use: END FN out$ (Perhaps the simplest, although maybe a little confusing if all you want to return a constant - eg. END FN 1 or END FN "" ) Tim W. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Jan 11 16:11:58 1997 From: "SL. Harding" Message-Id: <199701111606.QAA20507@irix.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS Functional procedures To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 16:06:38 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Tim Wells" at Jan 11, 97 03:33:58 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 613 Lines: 20 > > 50 END FN RETURN out > > Yes, I see your reasoning. I just wasn't sure about the use of RETURN in > the two different contexts - returning after GOSUB, and here returning a > value. There is also the thing that a function has to return a value, so > having to put END FN RETURN at the end of all of your functions is a > little excessive. > True. > You could perhaps use: END FN out$ > Tim W. > As it is not be look at as a type of procedure, but as an extended function, we could always have a... RET FN out$ FN RET out$ FN OUT out$ or some other, more descriptive name instead of an END FN anyway. numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Jan 11 20:30:01 1997 From: "SL. Harding" Message-Id: <199701111715.RAA21715@irix.bris.ac.uk> Subject: SOS GUI/=GEM! To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no (sam users) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 17:15:44 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 929 Lines: 21 > Don't know if it's of interest for SAMSON software purposes, but > I read in the newest issue of PCW that GEM - the Digital Research > windows styled operating system - is now PD. > In fact, the article I read gave the internet address to pick up the > 200K source code file for the operating system - all written in C. > Anyone fancy finding out more? > > David L GEM is not nice! I was looking at some specs over the hols. Writing an application for it is more than a little dificult. The application has to do all of the work! Even if you just move a windows position on the screen it is the application that has to handle it, and when you start changing the size of a window... GEM is practically the opposite to the ideals behind the SOS GUI as I see it. Numb. It still has some lessons to teach us though, representing the screen as having a virtual resolution of &4000 X &4000 is not a bad idea for a start. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Jan 11 21:27:12 1997 Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 21:16:56 GMT Message-Id: <199701112116.VAA13353@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: My serious problem. From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 526 Lines: 17 On Jan 10, 1997 23:47:48, '"SL. Harding" ' wrote: >Does any one know of a tempory bodge to squeeze a little more life from the >old one? The problem is right where one of the 'connect to the keyboard' >type strips bits bends as it comes from the main 'detect the keypresses' bit. >The 'crack' is just in the surface, just deep enough to break the connections. > >PLEASE HELP ME! >numb. > Try warming it with a hairdrier - it sometimes used to work on my old SAM. Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 13 07:40:46 1997 Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 08:39:40 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9701130739.AA13159@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: My serious problem. X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 628 Lines: 13 > Does any one know of a tempory bodge to squeeze a little more life from the > old one? The problem is right where one of the 'connect to the keyboard' > type strips bits bends as it comes from the main 'detect the keypresses' bit. > The 'crack' is just in the surface, just deep enough to break the connections. Go to your local hobby shop (or where they deal in electrical articles) and get something called conductive paint. Stick it over the crack (depending on which of the ribbons you are dealing with you might have to rub away the plastic on top of the conducing paths). The fix should be rather permanent. -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 13 10:20:41 1997 Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 05:17:48 -0500 (EST) From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <970113051743_1310486080@emout01.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Why the change? Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 89 Lines: 4 Ok, own up, why has the email address changed? Someone trying to hide things away? Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 13 10:20:41 1997 Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 05:17:48 -0500 (EST) From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <970113051748_1623326639@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: GLOUCESTER SHOW DATE Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 108 Lines: 8 Date now fixed for the next Gloucester show. Sat. 19th April. Usual place, 10:30am start. BE THERE Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 13 10:29:37 1997 Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 11:28:32 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9701131028.AA13267@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: GLOUCESTER SHOW DATE X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 152 Lines: 7 > Date now fixed for the next Gloucester show. > > Sat. 19th April. Usual place, 10:30am start. Woa! Perfect! I'll almost for sure be there! -Frode From imc Mon Jan 13 10:31:57 1997 Subject: Re: GLOUCESTER SHOW DATE To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 10:31:57 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <9701131028.AA13267@asmal.edh-net> from "Frode Tenneboe" at Jan 13, 97 11:28:32 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 279 Lines: 9 On Mon, 13 Jan 1997 11:28:32 +0100, Frode Tenneboe said: > > Sat. 19th April. Usual place, 10:30am start. > Woa! Perfect! I'll almost for sure be there! Now if they just put the extra meeting _after_ the Rexx symposium and not before, I might be able to squeeze it in... imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 13 10:36:29 1997 Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 11:35:30 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9701131035.AA13270@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Why the change? X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 389 Lines: 11 > Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no > Ok, own up, why has the email address changed? Someone trying to hide things > away? Sorry. I should have kept you informed, but I didn't know the date. The university hosting nvg changed name from UNIT to NTNU (Norwegian University of Technics and Science - they chose the norwegian acronym :). That's why. The old address will still work. -Frode From imc Mon Jan 13 10:43:22 1997 Subject: Re: SOS Functional procedures[ To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 10:43:22 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Tim Wells" at Jan 11, 97 12:17:16 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 573 Lines: 14 On Sat, 11 Jan 1997 12:17:16 +0000 (GMT), Tim Wells said: > PS. Something someone else mentioned to me over Christmas - On the > Spectrum, it was possible to create a DEF FN which calculated factorials > recursively. I sincerely doubt this (and anyway, recursion is not the best way to calculate a factorial :-) ). In order to make recursion work you have to have a base case which doesn't recurse, obviously, or else it will go on forever. Thing is, Spectrum BASIC doesn't have conditional expressions so you either always call the function or you never call it. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 13 11:19:22 1997 Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 11:16:46 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@napier.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SAMslider In-Reply-To: <199701102253.WAA09316@irix.bris.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 575 Lines: 19 On Fri, 10 Jan 1997, SL. Harding wrote: > Just a quicky... > > ZX ## -> ZX Speccys; > ZX Speccys -> Quantum Leap > So semi-logically... > > SAMcoupe -> SAMslider I like it! :) -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 13 11:23:19 1997 Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 11:21:09 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@napier.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SOS Functional procedures[ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1019 Lines: 27 On Sat, 11 Jan 1997, Tim Wells wrote: > On Fri, 10 Jan 1997, SL. Harding wrote: > > > We wanted a short program held in a procedure like structure that can be > > called as a function from within any PRINT, LET, IF, etc. Ok. I've been following the augument about how to return the value from a function. How about using the function name act like a variable inside the scope. ie:- 10 DEF FN lollypop$(x) 20 IF x=5 then lollypop$="lollypops all round!" 30 ELSE lollypop$="Get away!" 40 END IF 50 END FN (Sorry if the IF..THEN syntax is out slightly. It's been a while since I did any SAMbasic programming....) -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 13 11:27:45 1997 Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 12:27:20 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9701131127.AA13347@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SOS Functional procedures[ X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 350 Lines: 13 > Ok. I've been following the augument about how to return the value from a > function. How about using the function name act like a variable inside > the scope. ie:- > > 10 DEF FN lollypop$(x) > 20 IF x=5 then lollypop$="lollypops all round!" > 30 ELSE lollypop$="Get away!" > 40 END IF > 50 END FN How about multiple parameters? -Frode From imc Mon Jan 13 11:31:04 1997 Subject: Re: SOS Functional procedures[ To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 11:31:04 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <9701131127.AA13347@asmal.edh-net> from "Frode Tenneboe" at Jan 13, 97 12:27:20 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 398 Lines: 13 On Mon, 13 Jan 1997 12:27:20 +0100, Frode Tenneboe said: [an unattributed person said...] > > Ok. I've been following the augument about how to return the value from a > > function. How about using the function name act like a variable inside > > the scope. This is in fact the way Pascal does it... > How about multiple parameters? They already do have multiple parameters, don't they? imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 13 11:36:01 1997 Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 11:33:37 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@napier.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SOS Functional procedures[ In-Reply-To: <9701131127.AA13347@asmal.edh-net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1054 Lines: 34 On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Frode Tenneboe wrote: > > Ok. I've been following the augument about how to return the value from a > > function. How about using the function name act like a variable inside > > the scope. ie:- > > > > 10 DEF FN lollypop$(x) > > 20 IF x=5 then lollypop$="lollypops all round!" > > 30 ELSE lollypop$="Get away!" > > 40 END IF > > 50 END FN > > How about multiple parameters? 10 DEF FN lollypop$(x,y) 20 IF x=5 and y=1 then lollypop$="Lollypops all round!" 30 ELSE lollypop$="Get away!" 40 END IF 50 END FN . . . 1000 PRINT lollypop$(5,1) And I hope you all know that you can only return one parameter from a function. -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 13 11:38:00 1997 Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 11:36:08 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@napier.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SOS Functional procedures[ In-Reply-To: <9701131131.AA10956@client28.comlab.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 834 Lines: 20 On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Ian Collier wrote: > On Mon, 13 Jan 1997 12:27:20 +0100, Frode Tenneboe said: > [an unattributed person said...] > > > Ok. I've been following the augument about how to return the value from a > > > function. How about using the function name act like a variable inside > > > the scope. > > This is in fact the way Pascal does it... Where do you think I got the idea from? :) Strangely enough I like Pascal... -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 13 12:11:26 1997 Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 13:09:11 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9701131209.AA13409@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SOS Functional procedures[ X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 318 Lines: 17 > 10 DEF FN lollypop$(x,y) > 20 IF x=5 and y=1 then lollypop$="Lollypops all round!" > 30 ELSE lollypop$="Get away!" > 40 END IF > 50 END FN > . > . > . > 1000 PRINT lollypop$(5,1) > > And I hope you all know that you can only return one parameter from a > function. Sorry, minunderstood you there. -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 13 12:26:22 1997 From: "SL. Harding" Message-Id: <199701131219.MAA23952@irix.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS Functional procedures To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 12:19:13 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Justin Skists" at Jan 13, 97 11:33:37 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1775 Lines: 52 > > > Ok. I've been following the augument about how to return the value from a > > > function. How about using the function name act like a variable inside > > > the scope. ie:- > > > Great idea. It will be much nicer than 'orrid FN commands everywhere! > > How about multiple parameters? > > 10 DEF FN lollypop$(x,y) > 20 IF x=5 and y=1 then lollypop$="Lollypops all round!" > 30 ELSE lollypop$="Get away!" > 40 END IF > 50 END FN > . > . > . > 1000 PRINT lollypop$(5,1) > > And I hope you all know that you can only return one parameter from a > function. > I think that you missed his point, What if you want to pass a number of different types of parameters?... 10 DEF FN lollypop$(x,foot$,y) 20 IF x=5 AND y=1 AND foot$="tree": LET lollypop$="Lollypops all round!" 30 ELSE LET lollypop$="Get away!" 40 END IF 50 END FN . . . 1000 PRINT lollypop$(5,"Cheese Cake",1) It could be done but is a fair step from treating these things as arrays. (You missed out LET statements before the lollypop$="..." assignments, I assume this was a mistake due to using daft alien languages, and not the way of returning the results. Is the assumption correct?) Would it be desirable to allow the ommision of some of the functions parameters? This would help with assuming DEFAULT values AND give us the power to pattern match! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ============================================================================= > |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | > |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | > |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | > ============================================================================= > Numbly. From imc Mon Jan 13 12:31:49 1997 Subject: Re: SOS Functional procedures To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 12:31:49 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199701131219.MAA23952@irix.bris.ac.uk> from "SL. Harding" at Jan 13, 97 12:19:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 806 Lines: 23 On Mon, 13 Jan 1997 12:19:13 +0000 (GMT), SL. Harding said: > > > > Ok. I've been following the augument about how to return the value from a > > > > function. How about using the function name act like a variable inside > > > > the scope. ie:- > Great idea. It will be much nicer than 'orrid FN commands everywhere! But this is for returning the result, not for calling the function. You will still need those FNs because otherwise your function call looks just like a variable. > I think that you missed his point, What if you want to pass a number of > different types of parameters?... So what? There has never been a problem with this. > 1000 PRINT lollypop$(5,"Cheese Cake",1) > It could be done but is a fair step from treating these things as arrays. Huh? What are you on about? imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 13 13:22:04 1997 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 13:25:50 +0000 Subject: Re: SAMslider Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <3C4E5B71447@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1034 Lines: 32 > SAMcoupe -> SAMglider Eeek! Urgh! I'm kinda in favour of dropping the SAM bit.. Er, only maybe.... ... Sorry - I'll get my coat ... > SAMSON is NOT a practical release name, but a fine working one. True, of course. If Midget wasn't the name of that Genlock thingy that Cookie's done then it'd be a good name, I reckon. If you look at how products are named ... computers are just named by their company usually (these days)... unless they're top of the range'ers, or consoles, ... otherwise they seem to have numbers and things. P-133, A3000 ... I'm not in favour of this, but if you go for a product name it'd better be good. My SAM was an MGT... I'd always say I had an MGT sam when people asked what I had. The coupe bit I largely ignored. Would the 'samson' be a West Coast product? 'West Coast Samglider' - urgh West Coast Supremo - better. (although it sounds like an ice cream) .. SAMurai? hmm? Yeh - i like samurai. Thangyouandgoodnite! __ |_)ave |-|ooper From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 13 13:29:32 1997 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 13:33:25 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS Functional procedures Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <3C505CB21F2@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1118 Lines: 38 > As it is not be look at as a type of procedure, but as an extended > function, we could always have a... > RET FN out$ > FN RET out$ > FN OUT out$ > or some other, more descriptive name instead of an END FN anyway. > numb. > Yeh - I'm not in favour of End Fn either. BUT I am in favour of, eg, 10 DEF FN butterfly$(a$, b) 20 LET butterfly$="yes" 30 IF a$="" THEN LET butterfly$="no" 40 END Instead of RET out$, or whatever. ~~~ Who says functions can't return more than one value? Ever programmed in ML? fun TwoConsecutiveNumbers (x) = (x, x+1); for example. Not a fan of ML to be honest, but there ya go anyway Certainly for recursive functions this is almost essential sometimes. But then, I'm not a fan of recursion either... the naive recursive factorial is slow and pants, but if you can return more than one value it can be improved to O(n). But then again you may as well use a loop... but I think you can see what I'm getting at. (hope, maybe?) Wouldn't know how to do this ... without RET out$,b,kevin() or something... __ |_)ave |-|ooper From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 13 13:39:31 1997 Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 13:33:41 +0100 Message-Id: <97011313334189@morse.ntu.ac.uk> From: CC604050@ntu.ac.uk (ALLAN CLARKSON) To: SAM-USERS@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: 2nd NSSS X-VMS-To: SAM-USERS@NVG.UNIT.NO Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 390 Lines: 14 Remember, folks the Second Northern SAM & Spectrum show is just over a month away! There's not much time to get your orders for stands or advance tickets in! For more information, on advance tickets (1 pound each), stand bookings or how to get there, send a stamped SAE to: NSSS, 123 Potternewton Lane, Chapel Allerton, Leeds, LS7 3LW. Or you can e-mail me for typed information. Al. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 13 13:41:58 1997 From: "SL. Harding" Message-Id: <199701131332.NAA02335@irix.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS Functional procedures To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 13:32:21 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <9701131231.AA11042@client28.comlab.ox.ac.uk> from "Ian Collier" at Jan 13, 97 12:31:49 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1795 Lines: 52 > > > > > Ok. I've been following the augument about how to return the value > > > > > from a function. How about using the function name act like a > > > > > variable inside the scope. > > > Great idea. It will be much nicer than 'orrid FN commands everywhere! > > But this is for returning the result, not for calling the function. You > will still need those FNs because otherwise your function call looks > just like a variable. > A case of misinterpretation, from the way Justin wrote it, I assumed that he intended the function to be CALLED using the last line of his program... 1000 PRINT lollypop$(5,"Cheese Cake",1) Which implies that.. LET turnip$="wet"+lollypop$(6,"dynamite",6464) etc... Will also work. Indeed, I positioned my response to this aspect of his post in a confusing mannor. Yes, it probably would be too messy to implement the calling of functions as if they where arrays, but it is certainly an idea. > > I think that you missed his point, What if you want to pass a number of > > different types of parameters?... > > So what? There has never been a problem with this. > > > 1000 PRINT lollypop$(5,"Cheese Cake",1) > But if the function is to be called in the program in the form I just mentioned... 1000 PRINT lollypop$(5,"Cheese Cake",1) This IS new, even if... PRINT FN lollypop$(5,"Cheese Cake",1) is old hat. > > It could be done but is a fair step from treating these things as arrays. > > Huh? What are you on about? > A different aspect of the post than you! Although the other aspects of my post are highly valid about missing out parameters to the functions, with a 'DEFAULTNEEDED?' construct we could implement the equivilant to patten matching using simple IF statements at the start of the 'long functions' BASIC. > imc > Numbly. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 13 14:18:05 1997 From: "SL. Harding" Message-Id: <199701131410.OAA06777@irix.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SAMslider To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 14:10:21 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <3C4E5B71447@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> from "Dave Hooper" at Jan 13, 97 01:25:50 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1466 Lines: 48 > > > SAMcoupe -> SAMglider > > Eeek! Urgh! > I'm kinda in favour of dropping the SAM bit.. Er, only maybe.... > ... Sorry - I'll get my coat ... > Na, my vote is for SAM > My SAM was an MGT... I'd always say I had an MGT sam when people > asked what I had. The coupe bit I largely ignored. Would the 'samson' > be a West Coast product? > 'West Coast Samglider' - urgh > It would not be a 'Samslider/glider/something' though! It would be a SAM slider, Which you could easily be abreviate to... 'West Coast Slider' or 'West Coast SAM' if you want to say the company name. Keeping the company name of West Coast is a BAD idea, any company with the initials WC should... I treat the SAMcoupe's title as consisting of the machines name/model: 'coupe' and the products range: 'SAM'. The new machine is from the same range of products but will have a new 'name'. Users of the 'SAMSON' should still be refered to as 'SAMsters' as the ideals behind the machine will be the same. The gang behind the original SAM where refered to as the 'SAMteam', so I surpose, we, as the designers of the new SAM's should logically be refered to as the 'SAMcircle'. > West Coast Supremo - better. (although it sounds like an ice cream) Way off! > .. SAMurai? hmm? > > Yeh - i like samurai It already exists (they are a bit old now though!). > Thangyouandgoodnite! > > __ > |_)ave |-|ooper > SAM slider. Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 13 14:20:35 1997 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 14:22:57 +0000 Subject: Re: SAMslider Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <3C5D925529A@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 118 Lines: 7 > SAM slider. Sounds like digestive medicine. __ |_)ave |-|ooper From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 13 14:28:20 1997 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 14:24:02 +0000 From: Dan Doore To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SAMslider - Reply Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 141 Lines: 11 > > SAM slider. > > Sounds like digestive medicine. Sounds like a 'game' I once wrote. Betcha can't guess what the plot was... :) Dan. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 13 14:34:27 1997 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 14:37:10 +0000 Subject: Re: SAMslider Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <3C615E87C70@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 882 Lines: 36 > Keeping the company name of West Coast is a BAD idea, any company with the > initials WC should... Indeed! ... ~any suggestions? > The gang behind the original SAM where refered to as the 'SAMteam', so I > surpose, we, as the designers of the new SAM's should logically be refered > to as the 'SAMcircle'. Again, maybe. Can't we just call ourselves the Sam team again? Is that such a problem? > > Yeh - i like samurai > It already exists (they are a bit old now though!). Oh? oh well. SAM ice SAM deus SAM ram SAM nu SAM versus SAM aeon SAM prism SAM pro SAM proton SAM taclaus all better I think (apart from the last one - ir's a JOKE, you see) > SAM slider. Have you ever done marketing? ;) No really, no offence, but slider... doesn't 'do' it for me. We'd possibly, you know, like people to buy it. __ |_)ave |-|ooper From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 13 14:47:24 1997 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 14:44:46 +0000 From: Dan Doore To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: 2nd NSSS - Reply Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 404 Lines: 18 > For more information, on advance tickets (1 pound each), stand > bookings or how to get there, send a stamped SAE to: > > NSSS, 123 Potternewton Lane, Chapel Allerton, Leeds, LS7 3LW. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Do we get a complimentary knife & crowbar for safe passage up Chapeltown road? :) > Or you can e-mail me for typed information. Can you post it to the list? Dan. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 13 14:59:10 1997 Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 14:56:51 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@birch.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SOS Functional procedures In-Reply-To: <199701131219.MAA23952@irix.bris.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 878 Lines: 19 On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, SL. Harding wrote: > (You missed out LET statements before the lollypop$="..." assignments, I > assume this was a mistake due to using daft alien languages, and not > the way of returning the results. Is the assumption correct?) Yes.. I accidently missed out the LET (although I thought you didn't need it in SAMBasic... It's been a while).. Sorry.. Oh, and I have used ML and I hated it, although I don't remember seeing a function returning two values... -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 13 15:17:33 1997 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 15:20:28 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS Functional procedures Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <3C6CEF74E9A@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 384 Lines: 8 > Oh, and I have used ML and I hated it, although I don't remember seeing a > function returning two values... One of the 'selling' (hah!) points of ML is its ability to handle tuples of data which can be treated as a single entity. A parallel for this would, I guess, be a SAM function which returns an array. __ |_)ave |-|ooper From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 13 16:18:53 1997 Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 16:13:03 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Wells <93tgw@eng.cam.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SOS Functional procedures[ In-Reply-To: <9701131043.AA10895@client28.comlab.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 803 Lines: 19 On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Ian Collier wrote: > On Sat, 11 Jan 1997 12:17:16 +0000 (GMT), Tim Wells said: > > PS. Something someone else mentioned to me over Christmas - On the > > Spectrum, it was possible to create a DEF FN which calculated factorials > > recursively. > > I sincerely doubt this (and anyway, recursion is not the best way to > calculate a factorial :-) ). It can and does work. The item was in a Task Force article from a pre-historic copy of YS. I took a copy, but have left it in Leeds at the moment. I will try and get it, and post it up soon. However the trick is to use boolean algebra, but containing the function call within a string that is only evaluated at the relevant point. The reason for it working is highly dependent on the way the Spectrum evaluates it all. Tim W. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 13 16:36:19 1997 Subject: Memory allocation... To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 16:33:15 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Tim Wells" at Jan 13, 97 04:13:03 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Message-Id: <97Jan13.163350+0000_gmt.46931-89+119@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 450 Lines: 14 Hi everyone, Anybody got any thoughts on the best way we can go about implementing Memory management on the SAM? I'm talking malloc() style functions here. I've got my own ideas (see issue 4 of BOAI when it comes out in April for them), but I was wondering if anyone has their own personal way of doing it. Caveats: Must be able to allocate memory from internal and extenral RAM, and also be able to allocate /more/ than 32K in one go. Simon From imc Mon Jan 13 16:47:03 1997 Subject: Re: SOS Functional procedures[ To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 16:47:03 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Tim Wells" at Jan 13, 97 04:13:03 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 483 Lines: 12 On Mon, 13 Jan 1997 16:13:03 +0000 (GMT), Tim Wells said: > However the trick is > to use boolean algebra, but containing the function call within a string ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Tricky. I hadn't thought of that. You must mean... DEF FN f(x) = VAL (("1" AND x<2)+("x*FN f(x-1)" AND x>=2)) which would seem to be rather slow but will almost certainly work on the Sam. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 13 17:04:08 1997 Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 16:19:49 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Wells <93tgw@eng.cam.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SOS Functional procedures In-Reply-To: <199701131332.NAA02335@irix.bris.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 434 Lines: 12 On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, SL. Harding wrote: > Although the other aspects of my post are highly valid about missing out > parameters to the functions, with a 'DEFAULTNEEDED?' construct we could > implement the equivilant to patten matching using simple IF statements > at the start of the 'long functions' BASIC. I'm not entirely sure what you're on about here, but do you mean something like the DEFAULT command in procedures? Tim W. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 13 17:06:21 1997 Date: Mon, 13 Jan 97 16:57:55 UT From: Robert Wood Message-Id: To: Sam users list Subject: RE: SAMSlider Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 20 Lines: 1 How about SAM Elite From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 13 17:20:57 1997 From: "SL. Harding" Message-Id: <199701131710.RAA26443@irix.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Memory allocation... To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 17:10:48 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <97Jan13.163350+0000_gmt.46931-89+119@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> from "Simon Cooke" at Jan 13, 97 04:33:15 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 726 Lines: 19 > Anybody got any thoughts on the best way we can go about implementing > Memory management on the SAM? I'm talking malloc() style functions here. > > I've got my own ideas (see issue 4 of BOAI when it comes out in April for > them), but I was wondering if anyone has their own personal way of doing it. > Sort of (for the SAMSON anyway), but you will probably have to wait 'tel next Monday when I can get the ASCII file out of my SAM. > Must be able to allocate memory from internal and extenral RAM, and also > be able to allocate /more/ than 32K in one go. > Yep. > Simon > Numb. The 'see issue 4 of BOAI' really kills the conversation. If you are talking about the new machine this is hardly the way to exchange ideas. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 13 17:21:07 1997 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 17:16:17 +0000 From: Dan Doore To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: RE: SAMSlider - Reply Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 139 Lines: 14 > How about SAM Elite Question is, how do we know if he's taking the piss? Spam Souffle anyone? [*] :) D. [*] (C) Mr Graham Goring From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 13 17:31:15 1997 Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 17:28:32 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Wells <93tgw@eng.cam.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SOS Functional procedures[ In-Reply-To: <9701131647.AA11318@client28.comlab.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 381 Lines: 13 On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Ian Collier wrote: > Tricky. I hadn't thought of that. You must mean... > > DEF FN f(x) = VAL (("1" AND x<2)+("x*FN f(x-1)" AND x>=2)) > > which would seem to be rather slow but will almost certainly work on the Sam. Along those lines anyway. The original didn't work on the SAM though. (I tried it, but didn't have the time to work out why not). Tim From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 13 17:43:10 1997 From: "SL. Harding" Message-Id: <199701131736.RAA28485@irix.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS Functional procedures To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 17:36:03 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Tim Wells" at Jan 13, 97 04:19:49 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1745 Lines: 52 > > On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, SL. Harding wrote: > > > Although the other aspects of my post are highly valid about missing out > > parameters to the functions, with a 'DEFAULTNEEDED?' construct we could > > implement the equivilant to patten matching using simple IF statements > > at the start of the 'long functions' BASIC. > > I'm not entirely sure what you're on about here, but do you mean something > like the DEFAULT command in procedures? > > Tim W. Surpose the new 'long functions' can be called, missing out any number of the parameters and simple DEFAULT commands can be used at the start of the function to give these variables values if they are not passed. -just like todays PROCedures. Now... In SAM basic do we have a simple function to tell if any particular variable has not been passed to a PROCedure, so would actualy be initialised by a DEFAULT command? Assuming we have such a boolean function (I cannot remember if we do), surpose it works as... PRINT DEFINED(3) prints a 1 if the 3rd parameter has been passed to the function, or prints a 0 if it has not. A trivial case of this used as 'patten matching' could be... 10 DEF FN cheese$(a$) 20 IF DEFINED (1) THEN LET cheese$="Function was passed:"+a$ ELSE LET cheese$="Default cheese" 30 END FN so... PRINT FN cheese$("nine"); -> "Function was passed:nine" and PRINT FN cheese$(); -> "Default cheese" We cannot easily use this to implement real pattern matching but is close enough. This simple example could not (easily) be achieved otherwise. (We always allow true patem matching, i.e. a number of different funtions with the same name just with different parameters in their 'initialisation line', I surpose!) Hope that clarifies what I tried to say. Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 14 10:30:28 1997 From: SL Harding Message-Id: <199701141023.KAA20142@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS Functional procedures To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 10:23:07 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199701131736.RAA28485@irix.bris.ac.uk> from "SL. Harding" at Jan 13, 97 05:36:03 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 275 Lines: 9 > (We always allow true patem matching, i.e. a number of different funtions > with the same name just with different parameters in their 'initialisation > line', I surpose!) > miss-type attack. please read as... We COULD always allow true pattern matchine I surpose. Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 14 10:37:39 1997 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 10:35:54 +0000 From: Dan Doore To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SOS Functional procedures - Reply Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1404 Lines: 46 > In SAM basic do we have a simple function to tell if any particular > variable has not been passed to a PROCedure, so would actualy be > initialised by a DEFAULT command? DEF PROC pod (x,y,z) DEFAULT x=10,y=20,z=30 blah blah END PROC Now as I remember it you can call it with pod (100) pod (100,200) and the DEFAULTS will work, but you cannot specify which variable to default since they are done in order i.e. you cannot have values for x & z and default y since it is in the middle of the varaible list. So in this case a function would be handy, but I don't think there is one. You could use: DEF PROC pod DATA and then use ITEM to work out what varaibles were there I suppose, but then you wouldn't know which order they came it... doh. > Assuming we have such a boolean function (I cannot remember if we do), > surpose it works as... PRINT DEFINED(3) prints a 1 if the 3rd parameter > has been passed to the function, or prints a 0 if it has not. Good idea. > We cannot easily use this to implement real pattern matching but is > close enough. This simple example could not (easily) be achieved otherwise. > > (We always allow true patem matching, i.e. a number of different funtions > with the same name just with different parameters in their 'initialisation > line', I surpose!) Just out of interest, do other BASIC versions/other languages support this parameter malarky? Dan. From imc Tue Jan 14 11:09:38 1997 Subject: Re: SOS Functional procedures - Reply To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:09:38 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Dan Doore" at Jan 14, 97 10:35:54 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 1687 Lines: 58 On Tue, 14 Jan 1997 10:35:54 +0000, Dan Doore said: > You could use: > > DEF PROC pod DATA > > and then use ITEM to work out what varaibles were there I suppose, but then you > wouldn't know which order they came it... doh. Hardly any language gives you the order of the parameters. It's not something on which I would place a high priority. You would have to allow something like: DEF PROC foo x=3, y=4, z=5 : REM the default values are 3, 4 and 5 ...blah... END PROC foo y=4, x=1 : REM z will have its default value of 5 except that "y=4" is today a valid expression so you might have to allow foo LET y=4, x=1. Incidentally, DATA and ITEM are useful for implementing a procedure with an arbitrary number of parameters. > > Assuming we have such a boolean function (I cannot remember if we do), > > surpose it works as... PRINT DEFINED(3) prints a 1 if the 3rd parameter > > has been passed to the function, or prints a 0 if it has not. > Good idea. PRINT DEFINED(a) or PRINT DEFINED("a") would be more flexible. It tells you whether a is a defined variable or not. You don't have to use it for parameters, but if you do then DEF PROC foo x,y,z PRINT DEFINED("y") will tell you whether the second parameter was set or not. > > (We always allow true patem matching, i.e. a number of different funtions > > with the same name just with different parameters in their 'initialisation > > line', I surpose!) > Just out of interest, do other BASIC versions/other languages support this parameter > malarky? Back to ML again... I'll write this in "gofer", since it's closer to real mathematics. fact 0 = 1 fact (n+1) = (n+1)*fact n This is a real program. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 14 11:18:29 1997 Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:13:30 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Wells <93tgw@eng.cam.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SOS Functional procedures - Reply In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 277 Lines: 19 > DEF PROC pod (x,y,z) > DEFAULT x=10,y=20,z=30 > blah blah > END PROC > > Now as I remember it you can call it with > > pod (100) > pod (100,200) Is it not possible to do: pod (,200) ? I've not used DEFAULT for so long that I can't remember if it works or not. Tim From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 14 11:20:20 1997 From: "SL. Harding" Message-Id: <199701141111.LAA29318@irix.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS Functional procedures - Reply To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:11:36 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Dan Doore" at Jan 14, 97 10:35:54 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 553 Lines: 24 > pod (100) > pod (100,200) > > and the DEFAULTS will work, but you cannot specify which variable to default > since they are done in order i.e. you cannot have values for x & z and > default y since it is in the middle of the varaible list. > But if we mixed strings and variables... 10 DEF FN pod$(tur$,nip) 20 IF DEFINED(1) THEN LET pod$ = "T'was passed a string" 30 IF DEFINED(2) THEN LET pod$ = "T'was passed a variable" 40 END FN . PRINT pod(7) PRINT pod("ello") and PRINT pod("one",two) May be possible (but could get messy). > Dan. > Numb. From imc Tue Jan 14 11:32:42 1997 Subject: Re: SOS Functional procedures - Reply To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:32:42 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199701141111.LAA29318@irix.bris.ac.uk> from "SL. Harding" at Jan 14, 97 11:11:36 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 452 Lines: 18 On Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:11:36 +0000 (GMT), SL. Harding said: > 10 DEF FN pod$(tur$,nip) > 20 IF DEFINED(1) THEN LET pod$ = "T'was passed a string" > 30 IF DEFINED(2) THEN LET pod$ = "T'was passed a variable" > 40 END FN > PRINT pod(7) Parameter error. You have to pass the parameters in the right order. If you don't want to give the string then you should do as Tim says and write PRINT pod(,7) (Another great invention from Rexx... :-) ). imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 14 11:56:33 1997 From: Stacey Witney To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no MMDF-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at relay-11.mail.demon.net Subject: Manual Required Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:39:12 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <853242440.1013973.0@huggable.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 334 Lines: 10 Can anyone help me in obtaining a copy of the Sam User manual, or perhaps let me borrow one for a few days. I just picked up a 256K sam with a few disks and a parallel printer interface for 25 quid, but it came with no manuals, hence my urgent search for a copy of the manual. ANY offers of help would be much appreciated. -Stacey From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 14 12:16:37 1997 From: SL Harding Message-Id: <199701141206.MAA07509@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS Functional procedures - Reply To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:06:24 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <9701141132.AA12774@client28.comlab.ox.ac.uk> from "Ian Collier" at Jan 14, 97 11:32:42 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1150 Lines: 38 > > On Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:11:36 +0000 (GMT), SL. Harding said: > > 10 DEF FN pod$(tur$,nip) > > 20 IF DEFINED(1) THEN LET pod$ = "T'was passed a string" > > 30 IF DEFINED(2) THEN LET pod$ = "T'was passed a variable" > > 40 END FN > > > PRINT pod(7) > > Parameter error. > At the 'moment', yes. But for 'pattern matching' it would be nicer... Logic: look at each parameter passed in turn, IF it is of the same type as the next parameter required THEN set it, ELSE leave the parameter to be DEFAULTed and try to match what is passed to the next possible parameter... IF you run out of parameters requred before thoes passed give an ERROR IF you run out parameters passed, start to interpret the function code ELSE loop back to the start and try and match the next parameter passed. Good Idea or bad idea? It could be extended to ordinary PROCedures too. > You have to pass the parameters in the right order. If you don't want to > give the string then you should do as Tim says and write > > PRINT pod(,7) > > (Another great invention from Rexx... :-) ). > Didn't Bob say something about breaking the rules?! > imc > Numb. From imc Tue Jan 14 12:23:28 1997 Subject: Re: SOS Functional procedures - Reply To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:23:28 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199701141206.MAA07509@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk> from "SL Harding" at Jan 14, 97 12:06:24 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 904 Lines: 25 On Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:06:24 +0000 (GMT), SL Harding said: > look at each parameter passed in turn, > IF it is of the same type as the next parameter required THEN set it, > ELSE leave the parameter to be DEFAULTed and try to match what is passed > to the next possible parameter... > IF you run out of parameters requred before thoes passed give an ERROR > IF you run out parameters passed, start to interpret the function code > ELSE loop back to the start and try and match the next parameter passed. > Good Idea or bad idea? Stupid idea. What if you want to omit a parameter in an all-numeric- parameters function? This special case is non-intuitive and only useful in a minority of cases. It also gives less room for error detection. > > PRINT pod(,7) > > > > (Another great invention from Rexx... :-) ). > Didn't Bob say something about breaking the rules?! What rules? imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 14 12:38:54 1997 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:36:46 +0000 From: Dan Doore To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SOS Functional procedures - Reply - Reply Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 714 Lines: 28 > > Good Idea or bad idea? > > Stupid idea. What if you want to omit a parameter > in an all-numeric- parameters function? This > special case is non-intuitive and only useful in a > minority of cases. It also gives less room for > error detection. This seems to be turning into an argument parser for a command line program where they may/may not be different parameter types passed to a program. I can't see why a function needs to have such flexible entry/exit conditions in general use - they're will always be exceptions, but are there enough to justify the added complexity required? > > Didn't Bob say something about breaking the rules?! > > What rules? Don't let's start _that_ again :) Dan. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 14 13:08:37 1997 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 13:12:15 +0000 Subject: RE: SAMSlider Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <3DCAC5B3F29@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 139 Lines: 5 > How about SAM Elite Hmmmm. Sounds familiar... how about 'not' .. ? __ |_)ave |-|ooper From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 14 13:24:16 1997 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 13:27:32 +0000 Subject: SOS functions Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <3DCEDC63695@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1658 Lines: 62 I think the most 'sensible' way of sending whichever parameters you like to a function is the kinda obvious one: PRINT porridge("Kevin,,,) > "Kevin wants porridge" PRINT porridge("Kevin",,,98) > "Kevin is 98 and wants porridge" PRINT porridge("Kevin",,4,98) > "Kevin is 98 and wants 4 bowls of porridge" PRINT porridge("Kevin","Quaker",4,98) > "Kevin is 98 and wants 4 bowls of Quaker porridge" PRINT porridge(,,3,) > "Someone wants 3 bowls of porridge" and so on... The implementation could be the following: DEF FN porridge(name$,brand$,num,age) = IF NOT DEFINED(brand$) THEN brand$="": REM a default if you like IF NOT DEFINED(name$) THEN name$="Someone" PRINT name$;" "; IF DEFINED age THEN PRINT "is ";age;" and " PRINT "wants "; IF DEFINED num THEN PRINT num;" bowls of "; PRINT brand$;" porridge" END ... which kind of incorporates pattern matching a default parameters in one. .. but then again, I'm not sure whether to change the PRINT lines above to PRINT FN porridge(,,,,) > "Someone wants porridge" Personally, I don't like the FN bitty. But PRINT porridge(,,,,) could really get messy with the syntax checker and all that. I guess FN is ok. Another kind of pattern matching is of course: DEF FN fish(p,q,r) = SELECT CASE fish(p,_,0) = p : BREAK fish(0,q,r) = q+r : BREAK fish(p,q,r) = p+q+fish(p-1,q,r-1) : BREAK END SELECT END or something. Something more standardised. That up thar' looks a bit dodgy. Does SAM have a CASE statement? I can never remember. I thought it didn't. Maybe MasterBASIC did but I never got it... __ |_)ave |-|ooper From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 14 13:30:27 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <3575.199701141327@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Functions To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 13:27:39 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 299 Lines: 8 Pardon me for asking, but why the argument about functions? What's wrong with the way that the arguments are handled in languages like Pascal, C, etc. - there has to be /something/ there, even if it's just a "null", but the procedure/function is perfectly free to ignore it. Works for me! ;) Paul From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 14 13:32:41 1997 Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 13:30:49 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@bittern.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SOS functions In-Reply-To: <3DCEDC63695@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1470 Lines: 43 On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Dave Hooper wrote: > I think the most 'sensible' way of sending whichever parameters you > like to a function is the kinda obvious one: > > PRINT porridge("Kevin,,,) > > "Kevin wants porridge" > > PRINT porridge("Kevin",,,98) > > "Kevin is 98 and wants porridge" What about:- PRINT porridge("Kevin", NULL, NULL, 98) > "Kevin is 98 and wants porridge" Then we don't need to worry about empty parameters and keep in the so called "rules" of programming langauge syntax... and you can still have the DEFINED keyword > > DEF FN porridge(name$,brand$,num,age) = > IF NOT DEFINED(brand$) THEN brand$="": REM a default if you like > IF NOT DEFINED(name$) THEN name$="Someone" > PRINT name$;" "; > IF DEFINED age THEN PRINT "is ";age;" and " > PRINT "wants "; > IF DEFINED num THEN PRINT num;" bowls of "; > PRINT brand$;" porridge" > END > Does SAM have a CASE statement? I can never remember. I > thought it didn't. Maybe MasterBASIC did but I never got it... I don't think CASE is implemented in SAM BASIC.. It'll be nice though.. -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From imc Tue Jan 14 13:34:59 1997 Subject: Re: SOS functions To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 13:34:59 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Justin Skists" at Jan 14, 97 01:30:49 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 455 Lines: 14 On Tue, 14 Jan 1997 13:30:49 +0000 (GMT), Justin Skists said: > What about:- > PRINT porridge("Kevin", NULL, NULL, 98) > > "Kevin is 98 and wants porridge" > Then we don't need to worry about empty parameters and keep in the so > called "rules" of programming langauge syntax... and you can still have > the DEFINED keyword If NULL is a keyword you've just thought of which means this and only this then it would be much better to leave it out imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 14 13:38:51 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <4338.199701141332@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: GLOUCESTER SHOW DATE To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 13:32:54 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <970113051748_1623326639@emout04.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Jan 13, 97 05:17:48 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 129 Lines: 6 > > Date now fixed for the next Gloucester show. > > Sat. 19th April. Usual place, 10:30am start. Sounds good from here... :) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 14 13:56:28 1997 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 13:59:44 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS functions Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <3DD76F0172A@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 494 Lines: 13 > If NULL is a keyword you've just thought of which means this and only this > then it would be much better to leave it out Hear hear. And if NULL 'wasn't' a keyword, you'd probably have problems type checking (ie, NULL matches name$, num, etc) functioncall := FN functionname '(' parameters ')' parameters := [parameter] parameters := [parameter ','] parameters sorta thing. Hope I used those [] correctly. (ie, options) __ |_)ave |-|ooper From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 14 14:01:46 1997 Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 13:57:20 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@bittern.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SOS functions In-Reply-To: <9701141334.AA12943@client28.comlab.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1777 Lines: 39 On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Ian Collier wrote: > On Tue, 14 Jan 1997 13:30:49 +0000 (GMT), Justin Skists said: > > What about:- > > > PRINT porridge("Kevin", NULL, NULL, 98) > > > "Kevin is 98 and wants porridge" > > > Then we don't need to worry about empty parameters and keep in the so > > called "rules" of programming langauge syntax... and you can still have > > the DEFINED keyword > > If NULL is a keyword you've just thought of which means this and only this > then it would be much better to leave it out But it can be used to initialise pointers to a null value. We could even have pointers to procedures and pass procedures to procedures. An example of this would be having a set of procedures to deal with linked lists and a procedure that could do an action on the set. Blurgh. I'm getting all muddled up now. How difficult will it be to implement pointers? I like pointers and you can do a hell of a lot with them (even if you can't have pointers to procedures). In fact, if people are talking about malloc, you'll *need* pointers and NULL or don't you guys want a MALLOC command in SAMBasic? I think it would be really stupid to implement things like optional variables which hardly anyone would use and not implement pointers and MALLOC which is essential in a flexible language. Hell, why not take out PEEK and POKE... Imagine C without pointers...... -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From imc Tue Jan 14 14:08:52 1997 Subject: Re: SOS functions To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:08:52 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Justin Skists" at Jan 14, 97 01:57:20 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 889 Lines: 22 On Tue, 14 Jan 1997 13:57:20 +0000 (GMT), Justin Skists said: > But it can be used to initialise pointers to a null value. BASIC doesn't have pointers. Full stop. It has no use for them. > We could even > have pointers to procedures and pass procedures to procedures. You don't need pointers for that (although treating procedures as first class objects is also not native to BASIC). > In fact, if people are talking about malloc, you'll *need* pointers and NULL > or don't you guys want a MALLOC command in SAMBasic? BASIC is not C. C has a malloc() function. MALLOC would be useless in BASIC. You can get the same effect in any case by dimensioning a large string array. If you want pointers and malloc then go and use C. If you want procedures as first class objects then use Modula-2. Let's keep BASIC BASIC. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 14 14:31:20 1997 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:34:03 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS functions Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <3DE09B054A5@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 938 Lines: 32 > BASIC is not C. C has a malloc() function. MALLOC would be useless in > BASIC. You can get the same effect in any case by dimensioning a large > string array. > If you want pointers and malloc then go and use C. If you want procedures as > first class objects then use Modula-2. Let's keep BASIC BASIC. Well said. ... .. although, it might be useful to be able to pass a procedure name as a parameter ... For example, you want to run a test bed on sorts: PRINT FN time(PROC quicksort) PRINT FN time(PROC shellsort) where you have one generic timing function and the procedure name is passed to it. The only way to do this at the moment is PRINT FN time("quicksort") where you have DEF FN time(procname$) = ResetTimer : rem a procedure KEYIN (procname$ + " sampledata()" ) ShowTimeElapsed : rem another procedure END which doesn't always work anyway __ |_)ave |-|ooper From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 14 14:39:36 1997 Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:37:48 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@bittern.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SOS functions In-Reply-To: <9701141408.AA12993@client28.comlab.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1863 Lines: 44 On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Ian Collier wrote: > BASIC doesn't have pointers. Full stop. It has no use for them. Okaaay... Obviously speed is not an important criteria in your programming.. > You don't need pointers for that (although treating procedures as first > class objects is also not native to BASIC). Hmmm.... Having procedures fullstop is not native to BASIC... > BASIC is not C. C has a malloc() function. MALLOC would be useless in > BASIC. You can get the same effect in any case by dimensioning a large > string array. Fiiine.... What do you think is quicker: Passing a 64K array through to a procedure or passing a three byte (page + offset) pointer value? > If you want pointers and malloc then go and use C. If you want procedures as > first class objects then use Modula-2. Why do you think I do? (Although I don't like Modula-2) > Let's keep BASIC BASIC. Ok then... Get rid of Procedures... Forget Functions... Don't have PEEK, POKE or any hardware specific command... Keep to GOTO and GOSUB... Get rid of DO and LOOP.... No BLITZ, graphics or network/WEB commands... SAM Basic has a LOT more commands than the normal, original, BASIC. And is therefore a hell of a lot more flexible and powerful than, say, MS BASIC or RM BASIC. If the Spectrum and SAM have increased the power so far, why not go the extra mile? Or have you never needed to use linked-lists and binary trees in your programs? -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 14 14:41:45 1997 Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:40:17 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Paveley To: Sam Users Mailing List Subject: Help! - JFARLDIR and Sam C (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1921 Lines: 48 Okay, I'm sure this never got through first time, at least, I never saw it again, so I've remailed it. Much apologies if you did get it! Tim ....@/ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 15:27:33 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Paveley To: Sam Users Mailing List Subject: Help! - JFARLDIR and Sam C Help! I was in the process of writing a game happily in BASIC, when I realised I couldn't come up with a secure method to protect my levels (ie so you have to play them in order, puzzle game.) So I started to write it in C. However, there is 35k of level data which won't fit in the available memory, so I decided that I'd store it elsewhere and copy it across as required. So I look in my tech manual and read up on JFARLDIR, I look in my SAM C manual and read up on callcode(); However I can't get it to work. The first hurdle was that callcode was incorrectly written, so that the registers where set up wrong, so I rewrote callcode to get it right. However nothing I do seems to get it to wrok properly, has anybody used this in C? I tried to use JFARLDDR instead, but all this seemed to do was corrupt the font (no matter which page & offsets I was using), and periodically crash the Sam, at least it did something though. Both JFARLD?R's use some system variables, which I set, and they remained set afterwards. Any chance that C pages the system variables out, I did wonder this, but then you can happily use them to change mode and stuff, so I don't think that's the problem. Anyone got any ideas for things I could try? I'll happily supply more details on request. Ta! Tim ....@/ .........................................................................@/ Unc - Tim Paveley - http://dplinux.sund.ac.uk/~unc/ Staff of the Monochrome BBS - http://www.mono.org/ Owner of a Sam Coupe - http://www.mono.org/~unc/Coupe/ From imc Tue Jan 14 14:43:29 1997 Subject: Re: SOS functions To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:43:29 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Justin Skists" at Jan 14, 97 02:37:48 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 815 Lines: 22 On Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:37:48 +0000 (GMT), Justin Skists said: > Fiiine.... What do you think is quicker: Passing a 64K array through to a > procedure or passing a three byte (page + offset) pointer value? Pass the string by reference. Just as quick. Or if you really want, use LENGTH to find the address of the string (although of course it might change). > > Let's keep BASIC BASIC. > Ok then... Get rid of Procedures... Forget Functions... Don't have PEEK, > POKE or any hardware specific command... Keep to GOTO and GOSUB... Get > rid of DO and LOOP.... No BLITZ, graphics or network/WEB commands... Don't be silly. > Or have you never needed to use linked-lists and binary trees in your > programs? You don't need pointers. A plain integer will do it. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 14 14:53:15 1997 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:56:04 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS functions Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <3DE673F3149@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1150 Lines: 30 > Okaaay... Obviously speed is not an important criteria in your programming.. ... not so much in BASIC anyway. BASIC ain't everything you know! > Hmmm.... Having procedures fullstop is not native to BASIC... Says who? Bob? > Fiiine.... What do you think is quicker: Passing a 64K array through to a > procedure or passing a three byte (page + offset) pointer value? OK : but you can get around this easily enough, using, for example, REF in procedures. Or, depending on what you're doing, just pass the absolute memory address to the procedure. > > Let's keep BASIC BASIC. > > Ok then... Get rid of Procedures... Forget Functions... Don't have PEEK, > POKE or any hardware specific command... Keep to GOTO and GOSUB... Get > rid of DO and LOOP.... No BLITZ, graphics or network/WEB commands... I think he means keep it BASIC as in, in the spirit of the language, NOT basic as in crippled hopelessly and simplistic > Or have you never needed to use linked-lists and binary trees in your > programs? ... not BASIC ones! ;) __ |_)ave |-|ooper From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 14 14:59:13 1997 Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:56:26 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Wells <93tgw@eng.cam.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SOS functions In-Reply-To: <3DE673F3149@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 407 Lines: 11 > > Fiiine.... What do you think is quicker: Passing a 64K array through to a > > procedure or passing a three byte (page + offset) pointer value? > > OK : but you can get around this easily enough, using, for example, > REF in procedures. Or, depending on what you're doing, just pass the > absolute memory address to the procedure. Even simpler - let the array be global to the procedure. Tim W. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 14 15:05:01 1997 Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 16:02:37 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9701141502.AA14834@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SOS functions X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 455 Lines: 12 > > > Fiiine.... What do you think is quicker: Passing a 64K array through to a > > > procedure or passing a three byte (page + offset) pointer value? > > > > OK : but you can get around this easily enough, using, for example, > > REF in procedures. Or, depending on what you're doing, just pass the > > absolute memory address to the procedure. > > Even simpler - let the array be global to the procedure. That's the spirit of BASIC! :) -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 14 15:08:07 1997 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 15:10:09 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS functions Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <3DEA3794B45@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 394 Lines: 9 > > OK : but you can get around this easily enough, using, for example, > > REF in procedures. Or, depending on what you're doing, just pass the > > absolute memory address to the procedure. > > Even simpler - let the array be global to the procedure. Eeeek! How would you then 'run' the procedure on a different array? __ |_)ave |-|ooper From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 14 15:12:51 1997 Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 15:11:00 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Wells <93tgw@eng.cam.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SOS functions In-Reply-To: <3DEA3794B45@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 556 Lines: 17 On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Dave Hooper wrote: > > > OK : but you can get around this easily enough, using, for example, > > > REF in procedures. Or, depending on what you're doing, just pass the > > > absolute memory address to the procedure. > > > > Even simpler - let the array be global to the procedure. > > Eeeek! How would you then 'run' the procedure on a different array? Yes, I realised that once I re-read what I'd written. However by that time, the post had been to nvg and back. I don't know - who wants more than one array anyway :) Tim From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 14 15:23:13 1997 Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 15:19:53 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Wells <93tgw@eng.cam.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SOS functions In-Reply-To: <3DCEDC63695@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 804 Lines: 27 On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Dave Hooper wrote: > I think the most 'sensible' way of sending whichever parameters you > like to a function is the kinda obvious one: > [Examples of People wanting porridge snipped] > > DEF FN porridge(name$,brand$,num,age) = > IF NOT DEFINED(brand$) THEN brand$="": REM a default if you like > IF NOT DEFINED(name$) THEN name$="Someone" > PRINT name$;" "; > IF DEFINED age THEN PRINT "is ";age;" and " > PRINT "wants "; > IF DEFINED num THEN PRINT num;" bowls of "; > PRINT brand$;" porridge" > END But using the current DEFAULT construct: DEF FN porridge(nams$,brand$,num,age) DEFAULT brand$="", name$="Someone", num=0, age=0 PRINT name$;" ";("is "+STR$(age)+" and " AND age);"wants "; PRINT (STR$(num)+" bowls of " AND num);"porridge." END FN Tim W. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 14 15:33:38 1997 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 15:36:52 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS functions Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <3DF15685061@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 964 Lines: 29 > > DEF FN porridge(name$,brand$,num,age) = > > IF NOT DEFINED(brand$) THEN brand$="": REM a default if you like > > IF NOT DEFINED(name$) THEN name$="Someone" > > PRINT name$;" "; > > IF DEFINED age THEN PRINT "is ";age;" and " > > PRINT "wants "; > > IF DEFINED num THEN PRINT num;" bowls of "; > > PRINT brand$;" porridge" > > END > > But using the current DEFAULT construct: > > DEF FN porridge(nams$,brand$,num,age) > DEFAULT brand$="", name$="Someone", num=0, age=0 > PRINT name$;" ";("is "+STR$(age)+" and " AND age);"wants "; > PRINT (STR$(num)+" bowls of " AND num);"porridge." correction: PRINT (STR$(num)+" bowls of " AND num);brand$;" porridge" > END FN Compare and constrast, folks! Mine looks 'nicer', but the second kinda makes more sense. However, what if the guy is 0 years old or actually wants to make the point he wants zero bowls of porridge? __ |_)ave |-|ooper From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 14 17:14:02 1997 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 17:11:41 GMT+0 Subject: Pain in the ass alert!!! Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-ID: <55C603D5CE4@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 862 Lines: 26 Hello! I'm back after a much needed Christmas vacation. All this staying in bed all day at University has worn me out! Sorry to be the obligatory pain in the arse (and full in teh knowledge that this question has probably been asked by every returning student rejoining the list) but...(hem)... What's been happening then? Are we any further on the SAMSon? (A subject on which I have had a great deal of thought over Christmas which I'll deal with in a nother mailing at a later date) What were the results of Simon's survey? I've tried checking the archives (run by Ian Collier) but they only go up to the 9th of Novemeber (and I get error messages when accessing them.) Be much appreciated if somebody could uptodate me. Thanks Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) JohnnaPig OnLine (www.yi.com/home/TeareJohnna) "Great King Rat died today." From imc Tue Jan 14 17:15:41 1997 Subject: Re: Pain in the ass alert!!! To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 17:15:41 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <55C603D5CE4@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> from "Johnna Teare" at Jan 14, 97 05:11:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 337 Lines: 12 On Tue, 14 Jan 1997 17:11:41 GMT+0, Johnna Teare said: > I've tried checking the archives (run by Ian Collier) but they only > go up to the 9th of Novemeber Correct. I am going to update them soon (honest). > (and I get error messages when > accessing them.) What error messages? Is it serious? imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 14 17:36:24 1997 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 17:32:17 GMT+0 Subject: Re: Pain in the ass alert!!! Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-ID: <55CB34D2D89@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 596 Lines: 20 > On Tue, 14 Jan 1997 17:11:41 GMT+0, Johnna Teare said: > > I've tried checking the archives (run by Ian Collier) but they only > > go up to the 9th of Novemeber > > Correct. I am going to update them soon (honest). > > > (and I get error messages when > > accessing them.) > > What error messages? Is it serious? Erm...let me see..."Warning: Unrecognised coding. 'x-gzip'" or some such thing. Could be because of my browser? > > imc > Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) JohnnaPig OnLine (www.yi.com/home/TeareJohnna) "Great King Rat died today." From imc Tue Jan 14 17:42:44 1997 Subject: Re: Pain in the ass alert!!! To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 17:42:44 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <55CB34D2D89@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> from "Johnna Teare" at Jan 14, 97 05:32:17 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 380 Lines: 9 On Tue, 14 Jan 1997 17:32:17 GMT+0, Johnna Teare said: > Erm...let me see..."Warning: Unrecognised coding. 'x-gzip'" or some > such thing. Could be because of my browser? Yep, could be. Netscape recognises it OK, while lynx probably asks you to save it on disk. Whatever you have, you can probably also save it on disk. You can then view it with gunzip, if you have it. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 14 21:49:51 1997 Message-ID: <32DBE847.463D@ndirect.co.uk> Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:10:47 +0000 From: Neville Young X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Manual Required References: <853242440.1013973.0@huggable.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 422 Lines: 15 Stacey Witney wrote: > > Can anyone help me in obtaining a copy of the Sam User manual, or perhaps > let me borrow one for a few days. > > I just picked up a 256K sam with a few disks and a parallel printer > interface for 25 quid, but it came with no manuals, hence my urgent search > for a copy of the manual. > > ANY offers of help would be much appreciated. I can let you have one if you cover the postage. Nev. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 14 22:08:09 1997 Message-Id: <199701142206.XAA16049@mailserv.caiw.nl> From: Robert van der Veeke To: sam-users Subject: Re: SAMSlider Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 23:06:23 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 540 Lines: 22 ---------- > Van: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> > Aan: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no > Onderwerp: RE: SAMSlider > Datum: Tuesday, January 14, 1997 2:12 > > > How about SAM Elite > > Hmmmm. Sounds familiar... how about 'not' .. ? > __ > |_)ave |-|ooper Sam Excel, Sam Prism, Sam err...... How about something German or Dutch? Robert van der Veeke, aka RJV Graphics [rjvveeke@caiw.nl] Hokay, you plurps! Stan by your pots! Which one o' you plurps is sittin on my eye? --- Jetman --- From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Jan 15 13:10:11 1997 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 13:12:46 +0000 Subject: Re: SAMSlider Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <3F4AF02776D@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 185 Lines: 9 > Sam Excel, Sam Prism, Sam err...... I like them > How about something German or Dutch? Like ? Sam Wunderbar ;) __ |_)ave |-|ooper From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Jan 15 13:27:14 1997 Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 13:25:33 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@goshawk.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SOS functions In-Reply-To: <3DE673F3149@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1191 Lines: 34 On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Dave Hooper wrote: > > Hmmm.... Having procedures fullstop is not native to BASIC... > > Says who? Bob? Says me.. Have you seen procedures in the original implementations of BASIC? > I think he means keep it BASIC as in, in the spirit of the language, > NOT basic as in crippled hopelessly and simplistic Oh.. I'm giving up... I've got more important things to worry about what should be in BASIC or not... > > Or have you never needed to use linked-lists and binary trees in your > > programs? > > ... not BASIC ones! ;) And nobody thinks pointers would be useful, never mind essential, in yesterday's (rather than yesteryear's) programming techniques.. Fine.. I think I'll stick to programming PCs and CP/M (or at least restart the JASIC project...nah..)... -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Jan 15 13:29:32 1997 Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 13:27:40 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@goshawk.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SAMSlider In-Reply-To: <3F4AF02776D@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 623 Lines: 16 On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, Dave Hooper wrote: > Sam Wunderbar ;) I read that as wonderbra... (trust me, eh?) Since the SAM Coupe sounds like a car model, how about the SAM Esprit, or the SAM Polo... SAM 5 litre injection turbo... -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Jan 16 09:56:04 1997 Subject: Re: SOS functions To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 09:54:16 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Justin Skists" at Jan 14, 97 01:57:20 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Message-Id: <97Jan16.095424+0000_gmt.46954-85+645@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 797 Lines: 16 > In fact, if people are talking about malloc, you'll *need* pointers and NULL > or don't you guys want a MALLOC command in SAMBasic? I think it would be > really stupid to implement things like optional variables which hardly > anyone would use and not implement pointers and MALLOC which is essential > in a flexible language. Hell, why not take out PEEK and POKE... Imagine C > without pointers...... They're not necessary in SAM Basic -- namely because every construct that you can create in SAM BASIC automatically allocates its own space. Only when you're moving into the realm of machine code programming and merging that with basic programs will it ever be a necessity in BASIC> Best thing to do would be to leave it out, rather than confuse the novice (BASIC) programmer. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Jan 16 09:59:44 1997 Subject: Re: Pain in the ass alert!!! To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 09:57:39 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Simon.Cooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <55C603D5CE4@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> from "Johnna Teare" at Jan 14, 97 05:11:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Message-Id: <97Jan16.095807+0000_gmt.46953-89+722@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 189 Lines: 6 I've not put the results of the survey together yet... ...however, I *have* put myself in bed with a bad throat infection, so you'll all have to wait a little longer I'm afraid... Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Jan 16 14:55:04 1997 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 14:58:03 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS functions Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <40E71A2445E@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 310 Lines: 8 > Best thing to do would be to leave it out, rather than confuse the novice > (BASIC) programmer. Totally in agreement. But what about passing a procedure name / identifier to another procedure or function - can this be done in any way? __ |_)ave |-|ooper From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Jan 16 16:17:07 1997 Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 16:08:57 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@galois.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SOS functions In-Reply-To: <97Jan16.095424+0000_gmt.46954-85+645@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1713 Lines: 36 On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Simon Cooke wrote: > > In fact, if people are talking about malloc, you'll *need* pointers and NULL > > or don't you guys want a MALLOC command in SAMBasic? I think it would be > > really stupid to implement things like optional variables which hardly > > anyone would use and not implement pointers and MALLOC which is essential > > in a flexible language. Hell, why not take out PEEK and POKE... Imagine C > > without pointers...... > > They're not necessary in SAM Basic -- namely because every construct that > you can create in SAM BASIC automatically allocates its own space. Only > when you're moving into the realm of machine code programming and merging > that with basic programs will it ever be a necessity in BASIC> Exactly... > Best thing to do would be to leave it out, rather than confuse the novice > (BASIC) programmer. Then why tell the novice programmer? Mention it but leave the explanations to tech docs like they did with the sound chip.. OK.. Fine.. I'm excepting the fact that I'm the only one who wants pointers so I'm now bowing out gracefully and not bothering with this debate. Oh. By the way.. For the people writing/thinking about the SAM ANSI C. Well, the Hisoft C for CP/M is public domain now and the source code for the libraries look juicy... -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Jan 16 17:37:04 1997 Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 12:34:50 -0500 (EST) From: Gouranga@aol.com Message-ID: <970116123348_1543725310@emout20.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: A rare message from Fred!!! Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1322 Lines: 31 OK folks, I think I can honestly say that this is my first message in over a year to this list, but if you do want me to comment on something, you know where I am! However, I'd like to include a piece of text that is going out as part of FRED issue 76's newsletter. Have a read, and if you're not interested, mention it to anyone who might be. I think we're talking about a three month period, but I'm willing to discuss almost anything! Colin Macdonald CARETAKER WANTED! For various reasons, among them the desire for a change and the lack of regular money!, it looks likely that I will be going away for a few months in the near future. However, this leaves FRED without someone to keep this ticking over, and a willing volunteer is needed. It is not meant as a voluntary job, although there is no regular wage as such, the lucky (unlucky?) person will run FRED as the business which it is. At a bare minimum, only a few hours per week would be required in order to handle the administration, software duplication etc. However, I would hope to find someone willing to put a bit more time and effort in to keep expanding things. At the moment it looks like the period we're talking about is from mid-February, but would anyone who is interested, please get in touch as soon as possible to discuss possibilities. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Jan 16 17:52:26 1997 Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 17:49:41 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Wells <93tgw@eng.cam.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SOS functions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 265 Lines: 10 On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Justin Skists wrote: > Oh. By the way.. For the people writing/thinking about the SAM ANSI C. > Well, the Hisoft C for CP/M is public domain now and the source code for > the libraries look juicy... Do you mean Hisoft or Hitech ? Tim W. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Jan 16 19:07:46 1997 Message-ID: <32DE7C05.6FD9@ndirect.co.uk> Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 19:05:41 +0000 From: Neville Young X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sams users mail list Subject: the shows Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 125 Lines: 5 Have I just missed them or have neither the Gloucester or NSSS shows been advertised on newsgroup comp.sys.sinclair ? Nev. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Jan 17 12:12:40 1997 Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 12:10:33 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@birch.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SOS functions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 728 Lines: 19 On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Tim Wells wrote: > On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Justin Skists wrote: > > > Oh. By the way.. For the people writing/thinking about the SAM ANSI C. > > Well, the Hisoft C for CP/M is public domain now and the source code for > > the libraries look juicy... > > Do you mean Hisoft or Hitech ? Oops.. Yes.. Hitech... -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Jan 17 13:32:09 1997 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 13:30:44 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee Willis To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Passing procedure names In-Reply-To: <40E71A2445E@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: X-Mammoth-Status: Aware MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 802 Lines: 31 On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Dave Hooper wrote: ;>> Best thing to do would be to leave it out, rather than confuse the novice ;>> (BASIC) programmer. ;> ;>Totally in agreement. But what about passing a procedure name / ;>identifier to another procedure or function - can this be done in any ;>way? ;>__ ;>|_)ave |-|ooper ;> You could do it by passing an integer value such as 0 - 3 and then having defproc this_will_have_something_passed_to_it,x if x = 0 then Call_Some_procedure if x = 1 then Call_A_Different_One etc. But I'd be the first to admit that this is quite quite horrible and nasty! Lee. How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, they just make darkness the industry standard! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Jan 19 20:24:40 1997 X-Authentication-Warning: moose.mono.org: unc owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 20:10:55 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Paveley To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Football director II (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1158 Lines: 35 Hi, got this! AFAIK there sn't a PC version, but is it still possible to get the Sam version? Was the Sam Version a Speccy conv? Info would be useful so I can give the guy a proper answer :) Tim ....@/ .......................................................................= ......@/ Unc - Tim Paveley - Moderator of "The Games Room" & "Ascii Animations" http://www.mono.org/~unc/ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 00:12:33 +0100 From: Tony Gunnarsson To: unc@mono.org Subject: Football director II Some years ago, maybe about ten, I played a game called "Football director II" or maybe directory. It wasn=B4t really anything special ab= out it but I liked it allot. I have searched for it some time now and I think I found it on one of your pages. Do you know how to get it and do you know if it exists for pc. I would be wery happy if you could help m= e because I newer finished it last time. It is pretty simular to the "football manager" games but of some reason I liked the director better. I haven=B4t played any of the mnew version= s of manager though, Probably I would like them to. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Jan 19 21:17:39 1997 Message-Id: <199701192103.WAA11422@mailserv.caiw.nl> From: Robert van der Veeke To: Sam users Subject: Off topic - Hentai Oranda Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:03:24 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 394 Lines: 13 Hentai=pervert, Oranda=Holland or the Netherlands, in Dutch it is "Pervers nederland" Yep its my home page and it has nothing to do with the Sam but all with Anime, especially H-anime. Hentai Oranda url [http://www.caiw.nl/~rjvveeke/] Robert van der Veeke, aka RJV Graphics [rjvveeke@caiw.nl] Hokay, you plurps! Stan by your pots! Which one o' you plurps is sittin on my eye? --- Jetman --- From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 20 10:00:21 1997 Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 09:46:18 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Wells <93tgw@eng.cam.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Football director II (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 436 Lines: 17 On Sun, 19 Jan 1997, Tim Paveley wrote: > AFAIK there sn't a PC version, but is it still possible to get the Sam > version? Was the Sam Version a Speccy conv? > > Info would be useful so I can give the guy a proper answer :) > > Tim ....@/ FD II was a 128K only on the Spectrum (IIRC), and the SAM version was almost a direct port of that. It was produced for a range of computers though, so might have been a PC version. Tim W. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 20 10:00:22 1997 Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 09:55:30 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Wells <93tgw@eng.cam.ac.uk> To: Sam Users Subject: Re: A couple of questions... In-Reply-To: <853691297.514327.0@huggable.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1488 Lines: 48 On Sun, 19 Jan 1997, Stacey Witney wrote: > Can anyone help a Sam newbie? > > I've owned various types of Spectrum over the past few years and have now > just come into possession of a SAM. > > I few questions: > > 1. Is there a Sam program to load .SNA or .Z80 files (you know the ones > used on various speccy emulators)? Yes & No. Apart from mentions of things on this list, there is a program on the ftp site ftp.nvg.ntnu.no called convrt.pak - this will convert a .sna file into a SAM snapshot file. This can be loaded into SAM Tape V4.0. To get things onto SAM disks, use KE-Disk (also on nvg), which can itself be put on a SAM disk using the Teledisk utility which runs on a PC. > 2. Along with the computer came of a copy of Sam Tape V4.0 - does anybody > have any details on how to use this. I know I have to get a ROM image of a > spectrum onto the SAM, but I have no details on how this should be done, > how it should be saved onto disk and how to use the program in general. On a 48K Spectrum, connect up a tape recorder and type: SAVE "ROM" CODE 0,16384 This will save the ROM to tape. Then, I think the SAM TAPE program came with its own utility for loading in the ROM? - If so use that. Otherwise, insert a sam disc in drive 1, and type on the SAM: DEVICE T1: LOAD "ROM" CODE 65536 (Wait for ROM to load, and then) DEVICE D1: SAVE "ROM" CODE 65536,16384 > 3. Are there any programs to emulate a 128K speccy? (related to question 1, > I guess). No. Tim W. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 20 12:25:06 1997 Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 12:06:46 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@junco.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SAMSlider In-Reply-To: <199701201013.KAA29838@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 593 Lines: 15 On Mon, 20 Jan 1997 samsboss@uk.pipeline.com wrote: > What a sexist load of names. How about SAMANTHA, a bewitching name if ever > I saw one. Mine is called Samantha... My PC is called Essie... -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 20 13:11:25 1997 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 13:46:33 GMT+0 Subject: SAMText Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-ID: <5D100D01E55@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1313 Lines: 32 Before I start...I'm not at all keyed up on technical things so this is all guesswork...don't flame me for being thick! Would it be possible to feed teletext signals into the SAM's picture or would it require too much processing time. I was thinking that if it was possible, things like online help could be accessed via teletext etc. It's just a curiosity, but I imagine that if it could have been done, it would have been done for when one loaded games on the humble Spectrum. Finally got the .SNA files converted to my SAM. It's amazing how some games you have fond memories of are really really crappy. Mr Wimpy, PiMania, Cookie, Dictator - all of these I thought were classics and all of them let me down...! Two games which are STILL brilliant after all this time though...Jumping Jack and SpyHunter. Fantastic stuff... Whilst the list is so quiet i may as well take up some more time... Everybody pleased with Momentum and/or that Bomberman clone that I've forgotten the name of? Please let me know which one I should be buying first... (all written in the vain hope that the whole of the SAM community has not been abducted by aliens overnight - where are you all?!) Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) JohnnaPig OnLine (www.yi.com/home/TeareJohnna) "Great King Rat died today." From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 20 13:50:37 1997 From: Stacey Witney To: Sam Users Subject: A couple of questions... Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 16:27:52 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <853691297.514327.0@huggable.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 696 Lines: 21 Can anyone help a Sam newbie? I've owned various types of Spectrum over the past few years and have now just come into possession of a SAM. I few questions: 1. Is there a Sam program to load .SNA or .Z80 files (you know the ones used on various speccy emulators)? 2. Along with the computer came of a copy of Sam Tape V4.0 - does anybody have any details on how to use this. I know I have to get a ROM image of a spectrum onto the SAM, but I have no details on how this should be done, how it should be saved onto disk and how to use the program in general. 3. Are there any programs to emulate a 128K speccy? (related to question 1, I guess). ANY help would be appreciated. Thanks, Stacey From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 20 16:40:11 1997 Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:17:21 GMT Message-Id: <199701201017.KAA29940@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Off topic - Hentai Oranda From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: Sam users X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 590 Lines: 23 On Jan 19, 1997 22:03:24, '"Robert van der Veeke" ' wrote: >Hentai=pervert, Oranda=Holland or the Netherlands, in Dutch it is "Pervers >nederland" > >Yep its my home page and it has nothing to do with the Sam but all with >Anime, especially H-anime. > >Hentai Oranda url [http://www.caiw.nl/~rjvveeke/] > >Robert van der Veeke, aka RJV Graphics >[rjvveeke@caiw.nl] >Hokay, you plurps! Stan by your pots! >Which one o' you plurps is sittin on my eye? >--- Jetman --- -- This was so wierd I could have writ it. Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 20 16:40:12 1997 Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:13:01 GMT Message-Id: <199701201013.KAA29821@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SOS functions From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 540 Lines: 18 On Jan 16, 1997 14:58:03, '"Dave Hooper" <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK>' wrote: >> Best thing to do would be to leave it out, rather than confuse the novice >> (BASIC) programmer. > >Totally in agreement. But what about passing a procedure name / >identifier to another procedure or function - can this be done in any >way? >__ >|_)ave |-|ooper -- Why would you want to pass in this way? Can you give us and example of what you be talking about. Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 20 16:40:13 1997 Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:13:13 GMT Message-Id: <199701201013.KAA29843@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Manual Required From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 662 Lines: 26 On Jan 14, 1997 20:10:47, 'Neville Young ' wrote: >Stacey Witney wrote: >> >> Can anyone help me in obtaining a copy of the Sam User manual, or perhaps >> let me borrow one for a few days. >> >> I just picked up a 256K sam with a few disks and a parallel printer >> interface for 25 quid, but it came with no manuals, hence my urgent search >> for a copy of the manual. >> >> ANY offers of help would be much appreciated. > >I can let you have one if you cover the postage. > >Nev. > -- If it was missing de manuals, was it also missing the DOS system disc? You will need one of dem. Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 20 16:40:19 1997 Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:13:06 GMT Message-Id: <199701201013.KAA29833@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Pain in the ass alert!!! From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no, Simon.Cooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 542 Lines: 18 On Jan 16, 1997 09:57:39, 'Simon Cooke ' wrote: >I've not put the results of the survey together yet... > >....however, I *have* put myself in bed with a bad throat infection, so >you'll all have to wait a little longer I'm afraid... > >Simon -- Poor Simon, there be a lot of it about at the moment, half my office is away with de flu buggy. They recon its down to all the kissing at the Christmas and new year party(s). Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com Missed the kisses cos I was oft to see me mum. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 20 16:40:21 1997 Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:13:10 GMT Message-Id: <199701201013.KAA29838@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SAMSlider From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 848 Lines: 29 On Jan 15, 1997 13:27:40, 'Justin Skists ' wrote: >On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, Dave Hooper wrote: > >> Sam Wunderbar ;) > >I read that as wonderbra... (trust me, eh?) > >Since the SAM Coupe sounds like a car model, how about the SAM Esprit, or >the SAM Polo... SAM 5 litre injection turbo... > >-- >============================================================================= >|Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | >|BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | >|De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | >============================================================================= > -- What a sexist load of names. How about SAMANTHA, a bewitching name if ever I saw one. Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 20 16:40:21 1997 Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:16:04 GMT Message-Id: <199701201016.KAA29864@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Football director II (fwd) From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no, unc@mono.org X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1409 Lines: 44 On Jan 19, 1997 20:10:55, 'Tim Paveley ' wrote: > >Hi, got this! > >AFAIK there sn't a PC version, but is it still possible to get the Sam >version? Was the Sam Version a Speccy conv? > >Info would be useful so I can give the guy a proper answer :) > >Tim ....@/ > >........................................................................= >.......@/ >Unc - Tim Paveley - Moderator of "The Games Room" & "Ascii Animations" > http://www.mono.org/~unc/ > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 00:12:33 +0100 >From: Tony Gunnarsson >To: unc@mono.org >Subject: Football director II > >Some years ago, maybe about ten, I played a game called "Football >director II" or maybe directory. It wasn=B4t really anything special ab= >out >it but I liked it allot. I have searched for it some time now and I >think I found it on one of your pages. Do you know how to get it and do >you know if it exists for pc. I would be wery happy if you could help m= >e >because I newer finished it last time. >It is pretty simular to the "football manager" games but of some reason >I liked the director better. I haven=B4t played any of the mnew version= >s >of manager though, Probably I would like them to. > > -- Sam version still available, got one from Format at the last Gloucester show. Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 20 16:46:01 1997 Message-Id: <9701201304.AA1367@worldcom-47.worldcom.com> To: Sam Users From: Stefan Drissen Date: 20 Jan 97 11:53:51 EDT Subject: Re: A couple of questions... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1358 Lines: 47 >> 3. Are there any programs to emulate a 128K speccy? (related to question 1, >> I guess). > >No. > >Tim W. Basically there are no programs to emulate a 128k speccy, there is however a large number of 128k programs that have been patched to work on the SAM (with sound). Simon Cooke or Martijn Groen are the people to get in touch with since they have been responsible for a lot of the patches. I must point out that technically these patches aren't exactly legal. Stefan **************************************** This document should only be read by those persons to whom it is addressed and is not intended to be relied upon by any person without subsequent written confirmation of its contents. Accordingly, Coopers & Lybrand disclaim all responsibility and accept no liability (including in negligence) for the consequences for any person acting, or refraining from acting, on such information prior to the receipt by those persons of subsequent written confirmation. If you have received this E-mail message in error, please notify us immediately by telephone. Please also destroy and delete the message from your computer. Any form of reproduction, dissemination, copying, disclosure, modification, distribution and/or publication of this E-mail message is strictly prohibited. **************************************** From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 20 19:26:39 1997 From: SL Harding Message-Id: <199701201355.NAA25821@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Odin To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:55:14 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199701192103.WAA11422@mailserv.caiw.nl> from "Robert van der Veeke" at Jan 19, 97 10:03:24 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 361 Lines: 9 This is probably a stupid point, but I was wondering if everyone on this list is aware of 'Odin', the 486 based web machine that is aiming to make waves in one of SAMSONs biggest potential markets: web browsing. It's to cost less than 200 dollars aparently. I just thought I would mention it just in case, see... http://www.national.com/ns486/odin.html Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 20 19:56:20 1997 Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 14:44:41 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@klein.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Odin In-Reply-To: <199701201355.NAA25821@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1130 Lines: 25 On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, SL Harding wrote: > This is probably a stupid point, but I was wondering if everyone on this list > is aware of 'Odin', the 486 based web machine that is aiming to make waves in > one of SAMSONs biggest potential markets: web browsing. It's to cost less than > 200 dollars aparently. > > I just thought I would mention it just in case, see... > http://www.national.com/ns486/odin.html Hmmm... Looking at the page, it looks like a home building jobby (But my links being very slow so I can't have a decent look at it yet). But if you can build it that low, some company is bound to catch on. As it's 486 compatible, thery will already have all the drivers, browsers etc at their disposal. And where are we? -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 20 20:01:36 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <7036.199701201451@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Odin To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 14:51:25 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Justin Skists" at Jan 20, 97 02:44:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 172 Lines: 4 > compatible, thery will already have all the drivers, browsers etc at > their disposal. And where are we? We are up the proverbial creek without a paddling implement... From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 20 20:07:23 1997 Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 14:58:29 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@klein.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Odin In-Reply-To: <7036.199701201451@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 931 Lines: 23 On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Mr P R Walker wrote: > > compatible, thery will already have all the drivers, browsers etc at > > their disposal. And where are we? > > We are up the proverbial creek without a paddling implement... Ermm.... I've always fancied white water rafting... But this isn't the right list... Does anyone remember talking about SAMSONS PC compatibility? And that ARM chip we're supposed to be using for The Interface? Maybe we can use this Odin instead? Kill the PC, Sound, graphics and Web birds with one stone... -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 20 20:07:23 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <8708.199701201501@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Odin To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:01:40 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Justin Skists" at Jan 20, 97 02:58:29 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 421 Lines: 12 > Ermm.... I've always fancied white water rafting... But this isn't the > right list... White water? /White/ water? Who said anything about /white/...? :) > Maybe we can use this Odin instead? Kill the PC, Sound, graphics and Web > birds with one stone... So we buy a commercially available computer to use to partially emulate an 8-bit one, and then sell it for more money... Don't think it's going to catch on. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 20 20:13:37 1997 Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:06:57 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@klein.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Odin In-Reply-To: <8708.199701201501@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1192 Lines: 31 On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Mr P R Walker wrote: > > Ermm.... I've always fancied white water rafting... But this isn't the > > right list... > > White water? /White/ water? Who said anything about /white/...? :) Good point... > > Maybe we can use this Odin instead? Kill the PC, Sound, graphics and Web > > birds with one stone... > > So we buy a commercially available computer to use to partially emulate an 8-bit one, and > then sell it for more money... Not quite. We have the 8 bit Z320 as the heart and have the Odin as The Interface like we were going to have with the ARM... > Don't think it's going to catch on. Maybe you're right. Normal people worry about the data bus being the bottle neck of a computer. We have to be different by having the main processor as the bottleneck! -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 20 20:14:34 1997 Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:11:04 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@klein.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Odin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 612 Lines: 14 On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Justin Skists wrote: > Not quite. We have the 8 bit Z320 as the heart and have the Odin as The Oops.. I meant Z380... It was all thos bitmap resizings I did last night to 320 pixels across... -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 20 20:17:28 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <9795.199701201514@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Odin To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:14:21 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Justin Skists" at Jan 20, 97 03:06:57 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 858 Lines: 19 > On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Mr P R Walker wrote: Stupid thing. I've told elm numerous times that I'm not "Mr P R Walker", just "Paul" will do. > Not quite. We have the 8 bit Z320 as the heart and have the Odin as The > Interface like we were going to have with the ARM... >From what I gathered (I didn't bother checking the web page), the Odin is a complete computer. I take it it isn't? > Maybe you're right. Normal people worry about the data bus being the > bottle neck of a computer. We have to be different by having the main > processor as the bottleneck! Well... as you say, it's different. :) Could (I suppose) have it so that the machine runs by default on the Odin, bypassing the sam chip altogether, unless the user wants to go into "compatability mode", for want of a better term. And then again, as I'm not a hardware person, probably not. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 20 20:33:01 1997 Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:30:19 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@klein.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Odin In-Reply-To: <9795.199701201514@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1409 Lines: 34 On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Mr P R Walker wrote: > Stupid thing. I've told elm numerous times that I'm not "Mr P R Walker", just "Paul" will do. *laughs* > From what I gathered (I didn't bother checking the web page), the Odin is a complete > computer. I take it it isn't? No.. It looks to me like a "processing centre" to build the complete browser/product around it: The NS486 embedded processor with a few other chips. (It looks like to me) > > Maybe you're right. Normal people worry about the data bus being the > > bottle neck of a computer. We have to be different by having the main > > processor as the bottleneck! > > Well... as you say, it's different. :) Could (I suppose) have it so that the machine > runs by default on the Odin, bypassing the sam chip altogether, unless the user wants to > go into "compatability mode", for want of a better term. Can't see why not. > And then again, as I'm not a hardware person, probably not. I find it's the non-experts who come out with the best ideas... -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 20 21:04:06 1997 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:23:09 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee Willis To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Off topic, but I need the help ... Message-ID: X-Mammoth-Status: Aware MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 290 Lines: 14 Converting from degrees to radians ... Is it times by 180 then divide by pi or times by pi then divide by 180 ??? Ta for any help. Lee. How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, they just make darkness the industry standard! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 20 21:06:12 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <18217.199701201627@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Off topic, but I need the help ... To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:27:01 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Lee Willis" at Jan 20, 97 04:23:09 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 415 Lines: 10 > Converting from degrees to radians ... > Is it times by 180 then divide by pi or times by pi then divide by 180 ??? A useful formula is Pi (rad) = 180 (deg), which (from experience in exams!) you can rearrange to get the right result. However, I'm at the stage of the day where I'd need paper to write on to do this, and I don't have any paper handy, so I'm afraid the rest is up to you... :) Hope this helps! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 20 21:09:04 1997 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:30:55 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee Willis To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Off topic, but I need the help ... In-Reply-To: <18217.199701201627@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Message-ID: X-Mammoth-Status: Aware MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 709 Lines: 23 On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Mr P R Walker wrote: ;>> Converting from degrees to radians ... ;>> Is it times by 180 then divide by pi or times by pi then divide by 180 ??? ;> ;>A useful formula is Pi (rad) = 180 (deg), which (from experience in exams!) you can ;>rearrange to get the right result. ;> ;>However, I'm at the stage of the day where I'd need paper to write on to do this, ;>and I don't have any paper handy, so I'm afraid the rest is up to you... :) ;> ;>Hope this helps! ;> Yep, cheers, I just couldn't remember which way round it went. Ta ..... Lee. How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, they just make darkness the industry standard! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 20 21:09:04 1997 Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:31:24 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9701201631.AA01504@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Off topic, but I need the help ... X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 149 Lines: 8 > Converting from degrees to radians ... > > > Is it times by 180 then divide by pi or times by pi then divide by 180 ??? deg*PI/180=rad -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 20 21:56:14 1997 Subject: Re: Odin To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:33:55 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Simon.Cooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <9795.199701201514@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> from "Mr P R Walker" at Jan 20, 97 03:14:21 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Message-Id: <97Jan20.173504+0000_gmt.47008-19254+69@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 227 Lines: 8 > > > On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Mr P R Walker wrote: > > Stupid thing. I've told elm numerous times that I'm not "Mr P R Walker", just "Paul" will do. Use chfn, and change your name info -- if your sysadmin has let you ;) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 20 21:56:34 1997 Subject: Re: Off topic, but I need the help ... To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:34:41 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Simon.Cooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: from "Lee Willis" at Jan 20, 97 04:23:09 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Message-Id: <97Jan20.173540+0000_gmt.47008-19255+68@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 203 Lines: 9 > > Converting from degrees to radians ... > > > Is it times by 180 then divide by pi or times by pi then divide by 180 ??? Times by PI, then divide by 180 (or divide by 180 then times by PI) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 20 23:19:53 1997 Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 20:17:47 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@indigo.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no cc: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Off topic, but I need the help ... In-Reply-To: <97Jan20.173540+0000_gmt.47008-19255+68@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 393 Lines: 18 On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Simon Cooke wrote: > > > > Converting from degrees to radians ... > > > > > > Is it times by 180 then divide by pi or times by pi then divide by 180 ??? > > Times by PI, then divide by 180 (or divide by 180 then times by PI) > > Simon Do you realise, that mail has generated more discussion than anything else just recently? What's happenned to you all?! Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 21 00:57:17 1997 X-Warning: Assuming character set ISO 8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Diso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <199701202341.XAA23677@hermes.clara.net> From: David Ledbury To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Blitz 3 ... out now! Organisation: Persona X-Mailer: Atlantis v4.5 Date: Mon, 20 Jan 97 23:38:25 GMT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 684 Lines: 26 Gavin, and all you other Blitz subbers can expect your copy of Blitz 3 = to=20 be dropping through your door's very shortly! (ie in the next 48 hours!= ) A special thank you to Andrew, for an incredibly snazzy menu at very=20 short notice, due to Wayne being indisposed at the time. BTW Wayne may be joing the Newsgroup in the next couple of days, so could anyone fill him in? Blitz 4 - a double disk issue - is almost finished, and is due to be re= leased at the NSSS. (It'll cost =A32.75, instead of =A32.00 - but the price is= still =A32 if=20 you've subscribed!) For more details re: Blitz, either mail me - or ring Malcolm Mackenzie = on: 0161 797 0651. Cheers, David L From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 21 11:11:25 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <21237.199701211108@lily.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Odin To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 11:07:57 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <97Jan20.173504+0000_gmt.47008-19254+69@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> from "Simon Cooke" at Jan 20, 97 05:33:55 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 312 Lines: 6 > > Stupid thing. I've told elm numerous times that I'm not "Mr P R Walker", just "Paul" will do. > Use chfn, and change your name info -- if your sysadmin has let you ;) Nope :) There's a field in elm, "full name", but despite having that set to "Paul Walker", it still keeps putting the above... s'annoying. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 21 11:18:20 1997 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199701211114.LAA11730@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: NOOoo Odin To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no (sam users) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 11:14:09 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1279 Lines: 33 >>> Maybe you're right. Normal people worry about the data bus being the >>> bottle neck of a computer. We have to be different by having the main >>> processor as the bottleneck! >> >> Well... as you say, it's different. :) Could (I suppose) have it so >> that the machine runs by default on the Odin, bypassing the sam chip >> altogether, unless the user wants to go into "compatability mode", for >> want of a better term. > >Can't see why not. WHAT????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? If I had considered for a seccond that any of you would even consider talking like this I would have never brought up the Odin machine! I pointed it out to try and remind you all of the urgency of getting the machine finnished. Forget that I mentioned it. Using a 486 in the standard machine would be the worst move we could possibly make, we would have to subscribe to all of the inefficiencies of the PC world. I certainly don't think we want that, I think we need a fresh machine. I would never, NEVER consider buying it. I think you would find that a huge section of our current SAM owning potential market would rather die than be betrayed in this way. Why will sensible people buy a SAMSON? -because they want a REAL computer. Numb. From imc Tue Jan 21 12:04:39 1997 Subject: Re: Odin To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:04:39 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199701201355.NAA25821@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk> from "SL Harding" at Jan 20, 97 01:55:14 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 690 Lines: 13 On Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:55:14 +0000 (GMT), SL Harding said: > This is probably a stupid point, but I was wondering if everyone on this list > is aware of 'Odin', the 486 based web machine that is aiming to make waves in > one of SAMSONs biggest potential markets: web browsing. It's to cost less than > 200 dollars aparently. Just incidentally, it's been suggested that when network computers reach the market people will quickly start selling them for silly prices. For example: if you want a mobile phone now you can buy one for ten quid even though they are actually worth a couple of hundred quid. The company gets it money back by selling you a connection for 12 months or so. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 21 12:14:01 1997 Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:12:05 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@napier.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: NOOoo Odin In-Reply-To: <199701211114.LAA11730@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1332 Lines: 33 On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Stephen Harding wrote: > >Can't see why not. > > WHAT????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? > If I had considered for a seccond that any of you would even consider > talking like this I would have never brought up the Odin machine! No no no.. I said "Why not" as in is it possible... I never maent to suggest it should actually happen... > I would never, NEVER consider buying it. I think you would find that a > huge section of our current SAM owning potential market would rather die > than be betrayed in this way. Yes. I'm one of them... :) I was only pointing at possible pathways we could take.. Not wanting to sound pessamistic (sp?), but the words "Do we have a chance?" are in mind when I think of a SAMSON with fast Web viewing and JAVA interpretating software... > Why will sensible people buy a SAMSON? > -because they want a REAL computer. Here, here! -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 21 12:21:20 1997 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199701211206.MAA13200@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: SOS compiled BASIC To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no (sam users) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:06:11 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 109 Lines: 3 Here's a potential problem... How the hell will our BASIC compiler for the GUI compile KEYIN commands? Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 21 12:28:51 1997 Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:24:53 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@napier.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SOS compiled BASIC In-Reply-To: <199701211206.MAA13200@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 832 Lines: 23 On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Stephen Harding wrote: > Here's a potential problem... > How the hell will our BASIC compiler for the GUI compile KEYIN commands? Good question! I suppose it'll be the same with all BASIC compilers. Some commands won't be accepted and I suppose KEYIN will have to be one of them. Then again, who uses the KEYIN command? (I must admit that I have been known to... It was the easiest way of doing something..) -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 21 17:30:06 1997 X-Warning: Assuming character set ISO 8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Diso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Tue, 21 Jan 97 17:21:32 UT From: Robert Wood Message-Id: To: Sam users list Subject: Name of Power pack supplier Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 270 Lines: 12 To all those in need of a replacement power pack try Greenweld 27 Park Road, Southampton SO15 3UQ http://www.herald.co.uk/clients/G/Greenweld/Greenweld.html Email Compuserve 100014, 1463 They have bought all the SamCo surplus packs and are selling them for =A3= 6.00 From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 21 19:21:41 1997 Subject: Re: SOS compiled BASIC To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 19:16:26 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Simon.Cooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <199701211206.MAA13200@BITS.bris.ac.uk> from "Stephen Harding" at Jan 21, 97 12:06:11 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Message-Id: <97Jan21.191659+0000_gmt.46935-19255+156@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 301 Lines: 10 > > Here's a potential problem... > How the hell will our BASIC compiler for the GUI compile KEYIN commands? > Numb. Simple - we won't have A BASIC compiler for the GUI... I thought Ialready said this - it isn't necessary. Nice, but not necessary -- all the hard work is done by the GUI... Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 21 21:16:21 1997 Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 21:04:11 GMT Message-Id: <199701212104.VAA23658@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Name of Power pack supplier From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: Sam users list X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 536 Lines: 22 On Jan 21, 1997 17:21:32, '"Robert Wood" ' wrote: >To all those in need of a replacement power pack try > >Greenweld >27 Park Road, >Southampton >SO15 3UQ > >http://www.herald.co.uk/clients/G/Greenweld/Greenweld.html >Email Compuserve 100014, 1463 > >They have bought all the SamCo surplus packs and are selling them for =A3= >6.00 As bob will no doubt be quick to point out - these am not Samco power supplies. Dont touch um, mine went up in smoke after two days. -- Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 21 21:18:40 1997 Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 21:06:45 GMT Message-Id: <199701212106.VAA23778@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SOS compiled BASIC From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1147 Lines: 39 On Jan 21, 1997 12:24:53, 'Justin Skists ' wrote: >On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Stephen Harding wrote: > >> Here's a potential problem... >> How the hell will our BASIC compiler for the GUI compile KEYIN commands? > >Good question! > >I suppose it'll be the same with all BASIC compilers. Some commands won't >be accepted and I suppose KEYIN will have to be one of them. > >Then again, who uses the KEYIN command? > >(I must admit that I have been known to... It was the easiest way of doing >something..) > > >-- >============================================================================= >|Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | >|BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | >|De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | >============================================================================= > -- Keyin is very useful. gorra keep it. But the compiled code could still pass a line back to the BASIC/OS and say "scuse me, can you just handle this line for me" Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Jan 22 10:36:52 1997 Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 10:35:39 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@blue.csi.cam.ac.uk To: Sam users list Subject: Re: Name of Power pack supplier In-Reply-To: <199701212104.VAA23658@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 636 Lines: 21 On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com wrote: > >They have bought all the SamCo surplus packs and are selling them for =A3= > > >6.00 > > As bob will no doubt be quick to point out - these am not Samco power > supplies. Dont touch um, mine went up in smoke after two days. > -- > > Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com Well, I don't know whose stock they are, but I bought one and it is still going strong (and the transformer is the quietest of three so far!) Knowing my problems in the past though, it probably is worth checking the voltages before plugging it in to your Sam (but again, there was no problem on mine) Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Jan 22 14:21:32 1997 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 14:16:06 GMT+0 Subject: Re: Name of Power pack supplier Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-ID: <61986360BBE@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 801 Lines: 31 > On Jan 21, 1997 17:21:32, '"Robert Wood" ' wrote: > > > >To all those in need of a replacement power pack try > > > >Greenweld > >27 Park Road, > >Southampton > >SO15 3UQ > > > >http://www.herald.co.uk/clients/G/Greenweld/Greenweld.html > >Email Compuserve 100014, 1463 > > > >They have bought all the SamCo surplus packs and are selling them for =A3= > > >6.00 > > As bob will no doubt be quick to point out - these am not Samco power > supplies. Dont touch um, mine went up in smoke after two days. But, as I'm always keen to point out, mine has been going perfectly well for about six months... > -- > > Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com > Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) JohnnaPig OnLine (www.yi.com/home/TeareJohnna) "Great King Rat died today." From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Jan 22 19:27:27 1997 From: Stacey Witney To: Sam Users Subject: Where can I get hold of Master DOS/BASIC? Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 18:41:03 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <853958634.105866.0@huggable.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 92 Lines: 5 I think the title says it all... Can anyone help/point me in the right direction? -Stacey From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Jan 22 19:52:07 1997 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 19:56:18 GMT Subject: Re: Where can I get hold of Master DOS/BASIC? Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-ID: <3C6CA338B0@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 158 Lines: 3 Format Publications have taken over the selling of MasterDOS/Basic, and you can e-mail them at formatpub@aol.com. Erm, I think that's the address anyway... From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Jan 22 20:52:28 1997 Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 20:39:48 GMT Message-Id: <199701222039.UAA28404@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Where can I get hold of Master DOS/BASIC? From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: Sam Users X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 298 Lines: 15 On Jan 22, 1997 18:41:03, 'Stacey Witney ' wrote: >I think the title says it all... > >Can anyone help/point me in the right direction? > >-Stacey -- Look in the latest issue of Format, I think its on the Readers Service Page. Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Jan 24 11:37:34 1997 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 11:35:09 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee Willis To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SOS compiled BASIC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-Mammoth-Status: Aware MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 841 Lines: 27 On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Justin Skists wrote: ;>On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Stephen Harding wrote: ;> ;>> Here's a potential problem... ;>> How the hell will our BASIC compiler for the GUI compile KEYIN commands? ;>Good question! ;>I suppose it'll be the same with all BASIC compilers. Some commands won't ;>be accepted and I suppose KEYIN will have to be one of them. ;> ;>Then again, who uses the KEYIN command? ;> ;>(I must admit that I have been known to... It was the easiest way of doing ;>something..) ;> You shouldn't really use it as it's horrible programming practice, and I don't think I've ever found a use for it that I couldn't do some other way {Awaiting a thorny problem ....} Lee. How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, they just make darkness the industry standard! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Jan 24 11:39:43 1997 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 11:38:45 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee Willis To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SOS compiled BASIC In-Reply-To: <199701212106.VAA23778@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> Message-ID: X-Mammoth-Status: Aware MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1333 Lines: 35 On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com wrote: ;>On Jan 21, 1997 12:24:53, 'Justin Skists ' wrote: ;>>On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Stephen Harding wrote: ;>>> Here's a potential problem... ;>>> How the hell will our BASIC compiler for the GUI compile KEYIN commands? ;>>Good question! ;>>I suppose it'll be the same with all BASIC compilers. Some commands won't ;>>be accepted and I suppose KEYIN will have to be one of them. ;>>Then again, who uses the KEYIN command? ;>> ;>>(I must admit that I have been known to... It was the easiest way of doing ;>>something..) ;>> ;>Keyin is very useful. gorra keep it. Examples please ..... ;>But the compiled code could still pass a line back to the BASIC/OS and say ;>"scuse me, can you just handle this line for me" Are survey says 'UH UH!' This will NOT work. KEYIN would have to replace a section of compiled code which would mean compiling the new line. Working out which is the section of code to be replaced, replacing it and then changing all jumps in the code so that the new code would fit. Just ignore it if you were going to write a compiler, which I don't think we'll need anyway but .... Lee. How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, they just make darkness the industry standard! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Jan 24 12:01:13 1997 Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 12:00:14 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@napier.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: SAM users list Subject: Possible SAMSON problem... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1068 Lines: 31 OK. This is how I understand it: SAMson will have the Zilog Z380 as its heart? OK.. 32bit address lines and 16 bit data lines... 32bit register pairs so that would mean 16bit registers... Binary compatible with Z80... But will SAMson be binary compatible with the SAM Coupe? It's all very well having LD B,255 the exact same binary code, but hw about the way we use the Z80? We use every trick in the house. Playing with the overflow flag etc... But, since, eg, B is now 16bit.. INCing B by one won't raise the flag... So, if most tricks won't work anymore, how can SAMson be compatible with the Coupe? Or have i got it wrong again? -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computer behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Jan 24 12:22:24 1997 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: Possible SAMSON problem... To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 12:21:40 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Justin Skists" at Jan 24, 97 12:00:14 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1062 Lines: 29 > It's all very well having LD B,255 the exact same binary code, but hw > about the way we use the Z80? We use every trick in the house. Playing > with the overflow flag etc... > > But, since, eg, B is now 16bit.. INCing B by one won't raise the flag... > > So, if most tricks won't work anymore, how can SAMson be compatible with > the Coupe? > I would guess that if things like this weren't compatible then Zilog wouldn't really have the nerve to call it z80 compatible - or at least I hope so! One problem I can see is with the refresh register. As I understand it (though I may be confusing the z380 with the z280) it's a normal register, which may be problematic for those who use it as a pseudo-random number generator! -Andy ps: How come I only get two or three mails a day now? before Xmas I had 80-odd a day! I may be unsubbing soon as I am standing for a S.U. sabbatical position and I've invited people to email me with their questions, and with the Sam stuff as well I could end up spending all my time at the terminal and get bug-eyes!! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Jan 24 12:24:07 1997 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199701241223.MAA24942@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: possible SAMSON problem To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no (sam users) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 12:23:11 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 572 Lines: 20 > SAMson will have the Zilog Z380 as its heart? > > OK.. > > > So, if most tricks won't work anymore, how can SAMson be compatible with > the Coupe? > > Or have i got it wrong again? > > ====================================================================== > |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) As you say, the Z380 will be the heart. But the Z80 will still be there. So, for complete compatability will can simply tell the machine to ignore the new hardware and just use the Z80. This has been stated once or twice already. Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Jan 24 12:45:13 1997 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199701241245.MAA25033@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS compiled BASIC To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no (sam users) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 12:45:04 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1091 Lines: 30 >> Here's a potential problem... >> How the hell will our BASIC compiler for the GUI compile KEYIN commands? >> Numb > > You shouldn't really use it as it's horrible programming practice, and I > don't think I've ever found a use for it that I couldn't do some other > way {Awaiting a thorny problem ....} > Lee. Funny, when prolog programmers get so smug going on about how prolog is the 'only' hard-codeing high level programming language. This 'horrible programming practice' as you put it is just about the only selling point of that daft Japanesse language. Do we want compiled BASIC programs to execute any differently from when they are interpreted? No, not if we can possibly help it. With BASIC the question is never really one of not being able to do something, but of not being able to do something the way you want to. There are many many ways of doing anything whatsoever in our BASIC, half of them probably not even tried to date, thats what is so beautiful about it. Are we going to write a compiler anyway? I think this question has got to be put on hold. C9 Numbly. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Jan 24 13:08:42 1997 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:13:06 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS compiled BASIC Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <4848900550@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 333 Lines: 9 > Funny, when prolog programmers get so smug going on about how > prolog is the 'only' hard-codeing high level programming language. This > 'horrible programming practice' as you put it is just about the only > selling point of that daft Japanesse language. Eh? __ |_)ave |-|ooper From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Jan 24 13:15:24 1997 Subject: Re: Possible SAMSON problem... To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:12:36 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Simon.Cooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: from "Justin Skists" at Jan 24, 97 12:00:14 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Message-Id: <97Jan24.131313+0000_gmt.46937-349+24@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 939 Lines: 23 > But will SAMson be binary compatible with the SAM Coupe? > > It's all very well having LD B,255 the exact same binary code, but hw > about the way we use the Z80? We use every trick in the house. Playing > with the overflow flag etc... > > But, since, eg, B is now 16bit.. INCing B by one won't raise the flag... > > So, if most tricks won't work anymore, how can SAMson be compatible with > the Coupe? > > Or have i got it wrong again? Alas, there appears to be a slight miscomprehension here.. the Z380 in 8-bit mode, which is what you need for SAM emulation, acts *just* like a Z80, but with extra commands to allow access to the larger register sections... also, it lets you use the extra commands such as MULT and DIV. HOWEVER:: using SLL x and some of the more esoteric undocumented commands will give spurious and possibly crashing results, but the LD IXh/IXl/IYl/IYh instructions are *NOT* affected by this. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Jan 24 13:15:25 1997 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:17:37 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS compiled BASIC Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <485C553A96@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 478 Lines: 22 > {Awaiting a thorny problem ....} ... or how about: a 'fake' CLI. It takes a line of text, lets call it a$. If a$ is a known command it executes it (ie, IF instr(DelimitedCommandList$, a$+"!") THEN KEYIN a$) otherwise it assumes it's some file and loads it ( ELSE LOAD a$) or something. Crap and pointless, but hey, try doing it another way (except IF a$="DIR" then DIR ELSE IF a$="CLS" then CLS etc) __ |_)ave |-|ooper From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Jan 24 13:16:22 1997 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:14:55 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS compiled BASIC Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <4850552E26@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 466 Lines: 11 > {Awaiting a thorny problem ....} Example: a simple procedure which takes a chunk of memory and produces a hex / decimal loader prog. You know, like the things you'd type in for program pitstop way back when. It'd PEEK the memory or sommat, and then use KEYIN a few times to generate appropriate DATA statements in the prog. The only other way to do that is nasty poking of SVARs and stuff. __ |_)ave |-|ooper From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Jan 24 13:53:13 1997 From: SL Harding Message-Id: <199701241335.NAA25370@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS compiled BASIC To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:35:53 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <4848900550@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> from "Dave Hooper" at Jan 24, 97 01:13:06 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 956 Lines: 24 > > Funny, when prolog programmers get so smug going on about how > > prolog is the 'only' hard-codeing high level programming language. This > > 'horrible programming practice' as you put it is just about the only > > selling point of that daft Japanesse language. > > Eh? > __ > |_)ave |-|ooper > What bit did you miss? KEYIN commands -> BASIC can hardcode (in this case taken to mean 'write itself'); Prolog can remove and write its own program statements from within a program; Prolog programers tend to (wrongly) think they have the only programming language that can do this. Todays Prolog was mostly written by the Japanesse, funded by their governnment I seem to recall; Prologs popularity as one of the top AI languages is due to its hardcoding. You tell a Prolog programmer that hardcoding is horrible programming practice. It is just as messy in Prolog as in BASIC. Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Jan 24 14:14:38 1997 Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 14:12:59 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Wells <93tgw@eng.cam.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SOS compiled BASIC In-Reply-To: <4850552E26@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 551 Lines: 15 > Example: a simple procedure which takes a chunk of memory and > produces a hex / decimal loader prog. You know, like the things you'd > type in for program pitstop way back when. It'd PEEK the memory or > sommat, and then use KEYIN a few times to generate appropriate DATA > statements in the prog. > > The only other way to do that is nasty poking of SVARs and stuff. > __ > |_)ave |-|ooper Nope - the way to do it would be to write the data statements into a basic program on disk. Tim W. From imc Fri Jan 24 14:19:25 1997 Subject: Re: SOS compiled BASIC To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 14:19:25 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <4850552E26@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> from "Dave Hooper" at Jan 24, 97 01:14:55 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 416 Lines: 10 On Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:14:55 +0000, Dave Hooper said: > Example: a simple procedure which takes a chunk of memory and > produces a hex / decimal loader prog. You know, like the things you'd > type in for program pitstop way back when. It'd PEEK the memory or > sommat, and then use KEYIN a few times to generate appropriate DATA > statements in the prog. Yes but that doesn't need to be compiled does it? imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Jan 24 15:30:45 1997 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:21:18 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee Willis To: sam users Subject: Re: SOS compiled BASIC In-Reply-To: <199701241245.MAA25033@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Message-ID: X-Mammoth-Status: Aware MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 740 Lines: 21 On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, Stephen Harding wrote: ;>> You shouldn't really use it as it's horrible programming practice, and I ;>> don't think I've ever found a use for it that I couldn't do some other ;>> way {Awaiting a thorny problem ....} ;>> Lee. ;> ;>Funny, when prolog programmers get so smug going on about how ;>prolog is the 'only' hard-codeing high level programming language. This ;>'horrible programming practice' as you put it is just about the only ;>selling point of that daft Japanesse language. Eh? You've lost me now, what the hell has Prolog got to do with anything? Lee. How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, they just make darkness the industry standard! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Jan 24 15:30:45 1997 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:23:28 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee Willis To: sam users Subject: Re: KEYIN (Was SOS Compiled.) In-Reply-To: <199701241245.MAA25033@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Message-ID: X-Mammoth-Status: Aware MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 818 Lines: 27 On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, Stephen Harding wrote: ;> ;>Do we want compiled BASIC programs to execute any differently from when ;>they are interpreted? ;>No, not if we can possibly help it. I never said they should .. ;> ;>With BASIC the question is never really one of not being able to do ;>something, but of not being able to do something the way you want to. ;>There are many many ways of doing anything whatsoever in our BASIC, half ;>of them probably not even tried to date, thats what is so beautiful about ;>it. ;> Yes, but my point being that KEYIN is slow, unefficient, and unreliable so you shouldn't use it, especially when you can do things nicer ways. Lee. How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, they just make darkness the industry standard! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Jan 24 15:55:18 1997 Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 15:54:22 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@napier.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: KEYIN (Was SOS Compiled.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 877 Lines: 19 On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, Lee Willis wrote: > Yes, but my point being that KEYIN is slow, unefficient, and unreliable so > you shouldn't use it, especially when you can do things nicer ways. Not always... Once I had a simple loop. In it there was a test that did something only once in the first run and nothing else until the second run of the loop. The fastest way I thought of doing it was not using the IF...ELSEIF...THEN switch but a KEYIN to change the line that one time... -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From imc Fri Jan 24 15:59:33 1997 Subject: Re: KEYIN (Was SOS Compiled.) To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 15:59:33 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Justin Skists" at Jan 24, 97 03:54:22 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 666 Lines: 15 On Fri, 24 Jan 1997 15:54:22 +0000 (GMT), Justin Skists said: > Once I had a simple loop. In it there was a test that did something only > once in the first run and nothing else until the second run of the loop. > The fastest way I thought of doing it was not using the > IF...ELSEIF...THEN switch but a KEYIN to change the line that one time... Ah, back to the self-modifying code discussion in comp.sys.sinclair... BASIC is not a super-efficient language and such tricks are more trouble than they are worth. Besides, KEYIN-ing text into a currently-running program loop can screw things up royally because it moves the lines of the program in memory. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Jan 24 16:16:37 1997 Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 16:14:36 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@napier.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: KEYIN (Was SOS Compiled.) In-Reply-To: <9701241559.AA02980@client28.comlab.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 712 Lines: 16 On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, Ian Collier wrote: > Besides, KEYIN-ing text into a currently-running program loop can screw > things up royally because it moves the lines of the program in memory. I agree... But it did the job at the time and it was slightly faster and it had no side-effects in the running of the code... -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Jan 24 16:48:48 1997 Subject: Re: SOS compiled BASIC To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 16:24:02 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Simon.Cooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <9701241419.AA02904@client28.comlab.ox.ac.uk> from "Ian Collier" at Jan 24, 97 02:19:25 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Message-Id: <97Jan24.162801+0000_gmt.46933-350+23@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2173 Lines: 55 > > On Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:14:55 +0000, Dave Hooper said: > > Example: a simple procedure which takes a chunk of memory and > > produces a hex / decimal loader prog. You know, like the things you'd > > type in for program pitstop way back when. It'd PEEK the memory or > > sommat, and then use KEYIN a few times to generate appropriate DATA > > statements in the prog. > > Yes but that doesn't need to be compiled does it? I agree with Ian... not only that, but KEYIN is very hard to compile anyway: Cases in point: <1>: KEYIN "GOTO "+STR$(lineno+offset) <2>: KEYIN STR$(lineno)+" PRINT text$" Problems: <1> is confusing -- how would you actually execute that statement for a Compiled BASIC program? It's not really possible -- the GOTO statement tries to execute, but it can't as in a compiled program you don't have the concept of line numbers. <2> is the same problem -- line numbers!!! how do you implement them? OTHER COMMANDS which are invalid in Compiled programs: LIST, LLIST, DELETE, RENUMBER... (which is fair enough -- these should only be used when programming anyway, and should never [1] be used in BASIC programs) How to get around it: Use just-in-time compilation of sorts -- convert BASIC lines into strings of calls to routines, and tag these into the BASIC program (or create a Table of BASIC program lines, with associated routines). To execute, look into the table. If there is a routine which applies to the line you're trying to run, then call that. If not, then build a routine in memory, and add that to the table. THen call that routine. That's the only way to have it totally flexible for these people who want to play silly buggers -- frankly anyone who uses DELETE, KEYIN or RENUMBER in their programs should be shot at dawn, without a last request. Simon [1] Well, LLIST and LIST might be useful in BASIC programs, but I'm not totally sure about that.. For development only would be the way I'd describe the way they should be used. [2] I might start work on a just in time compiler at some point. I dunno. I don't really have all that much time at the moment. Besides, I've got Termite to work on still ;) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Jan 24 16:48:48 1997 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 16:49:21 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS compiled BASIC Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <4BE3DA75D8@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 366 Lines: 10 > > The only other way to do that is nasty poking of SVARs and stuff. > > __ > > |_)ave |-|ooper > > Nope - the way to do it would be to write the data statements into a basic > program on disk. And that'd be easier than KEYIN? You reckon? Eeek. __ |_)ave |-|ooper From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Jan 24 16:52:00 1997 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 16:56:05 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS compiled BASIC Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <4C00612B93@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2058 Lines: 46 > > On Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:14:55 +0000, Dave Hooper said: > > > Example: a simple procedure which takes a chunk of memory and > > > produces a hex / decimal loader prog. You know, like the things you'd > > > type in for program pitstop way back when. It'd PEEK the memory or > > > sommat, and then use KEYIN a few times to generate appropriate DATA > > > statements in the prog. > > > > Yes but that doesn't need to be compiled does it? Never said it did. I wasn't talking about compilation, I was talking about KEYIN - in reference to 'KEYIN is crappy and you can always do things a better way'. I was just making a point! > I agree with Ian... not only that, but KEYIN is very hard to compile anyway: > <1>: KEYIN "GOTO "+STR$(lineno+offset) > <2>: KEYIN STR$(lineno)+" PRINT text$" > > <1> is confusing -- how would you actually execute that statement for a > Compiled BASIC program? It's not really possible -- the GOTO statement > tries to execute, but it can't as in a compiled program you don't have > the concept of line numbers. Ok then: How would you compile the far more obvious instruction GOTO n or similar? Mathematical GOTOs do not even require KEYIN. 10 GOTO val(a$) and so on. That's right: your code would have a lookup table. > <2> is the same problem -- line numbers!!! how do you implement them? Yup, basically. But I entered into this oblivious to any discussion about compilation. Anyone who wants to compile code that 'grows' is obviously, I dunno, a donkey or something. > That's the only way to have it totally flexible for these people who want > to play silly buggers -- frankly anyone who uses DELETE, KEYIN or > RENUMBER in their programs should be shot at dawn, without a last request. So true. Except it's RENUM but I know what you mean. Although that example someone mailed (Tim? Lee? I can't remember) about KEYIN'ing to change the first line of a loop is quite cool and that. That's probably what I'd have done in m/c anyway. __ |_)ave |-|ooper From imc Fri Jan 24 19:17:09 1997 Subject: Re: SOS compiled BASIC To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 19:17:09 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199701212106.VAA23778@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> from "Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com" at Jan 21, 97 09:06:45 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 417 Lines: 10 On Tue, 21 Jan 1997 21:06:45 GMT, Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com said: > Keyin is very useful. gorra keep it. > But the compiled code could still pass a line back to the BASIC/OS and say > "scuse me, can you just handle this line for me" Except the BASIC processor won't be able to do much with it because all the line numbers, procedures and variables will be locked away in the machine code program somewhere... imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Jan 25 16:44:02 1997 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 16:43:04 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee Willis To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SOS compiled BASIC In-Reply-To: <485C553A96@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: X-Mammoth-Status: Aware MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 957 Lines: 32 On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, Dave Hooper wrote: ;>> {Awaiting a thorny problem ....} ;>... or how about: ;>a 'fake' CLI. ;>It takes a line of text, lets call it a$. ;> ;>If a$ is a known command it executes it ;>(ie, IF instr(DelimitedCommandList$, a$+"!") THEN KEYIN a$) ;>otherwise it assumes it's some file and loads it This would only work for single commands E.G. PRINT It wouldn't work for PRINT message$ unless your DeLimitedCommandList$ contained PRINT with every possibl;e variable it was called with, etc. etc. So I don't see much use. using KEYIN with DOS commands is always dodgy (Unless this has been fixed by now and I haven't heard ...). You had to bodge with some funny set of quotes or something ..... But yeah, okay I get your point ... I concede defeat, but I still think it's tacky ! Lee. How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, they just make darkness the industry standard! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Jan 25 16:46:25 1997 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 16:45:11 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee Willis To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SOS compiled BASIC In-Reply-To: <199701241335.NAA25370@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk> Message-ID: X-Mammoth-Status: Aware MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1237 Lines: 35 On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, SL Harding wrote: ;>> > Funny, when prolog programmers get so smug going on about how ;>> > prolog is the 'only' hard-codeing high level programming language. This ;>> > 'horrible programming practice' as you put it is just about the only ;>> > selling point of that daft Japanesse language. ;>> ;>> Eh? ;> ;>What bit did you miss? ;> ;> KEYIN commands -> BASIC can hardcode (in this case taken to mean 'write ;> itself'); ;> Prolog can remove and write its own program statements from within a program; ;> Prolog programers tend to (wrongly) think they have the only programming ;> language that can do this. ;> Todays Prolog was mostly written by the Japanesse, funded by their governnment ;> I seem to recall; ;> Prologs popularity as one of the top AI languages is due to its hardcoding. ;> ;>You tell a Prolog programmer that hardcoding is horrible programming practice. ;>It is just as messy in Prolog as in BASIC. ;>Numb. ;> Yep, and I can't stand prolog either. Its hard coding is done for a reason. KEYIN isn't really the same thing .... Lee. How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, they just make darkness the industry standard! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Jan 25 16:50:40 1997 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 16:50:03 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee Willis To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SOS compiled BASIC In-Reply-To: <4BE3DA75D8@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: X-Mammoth-Status: Aware MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 542 Lines: 21 On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, Dave Hooper wrote: ;>> > The only other way to do that is nasty poking of SVARs and stuff. ;>> ;>> Nope - the way to do it would be to write the data statements into a basic ;>> program on disk. ;> ;>And that'd be easier than KEYIN? You reckon? Eeek. ;>__ ;>|_)ave |-|ooper ;> It'd be nicer and more elegant .... Lee. How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, they just make darkness the industry standard! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Jan 25 16:51:20 1997 Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 16:38:37 GMT Message-Id: <199701251638.QAA00398@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SOS compiled BASIC From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1536 Lines: 52 On Jan 25, 1997 16:45:11, 'Lee Willis ' wrote: >On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, SL Harding wrote: > >;>> > Funny, when prolog programmers get so smug going on about how >;>> > prolog is the 'only' hard-codeing high level programming language. This >;>> > 'horrible programming practice' as you put it is just about the only >;>> > selling point of that daft Japanesse language. >;>> >;>> Eh? >;> >;>What bit did you miss? >;> >;> KEYIN commands -> BASIC can hardcode (in this case taken to mean 'write >;> itself'); >;> Prolog can remove and write its own program statements from within a >program; >;> Prolog programers tend to (wrongly) think they have the only programming >;> language that can do this. >;> Todays Prolog was mostly written by the Japanesse, funded by their >governnment >;> I seem to recall; >;> Prologs popularity as one of the top AI languages is due to its >hardcoding. >;> >;>You tell a Prolog programmer that hardcoding is horrible programming >practice. >;>It is just as messy in Prolog as in BASIC. >;>Numb. >;> > >Yep, and I can't stand prolog either. Its hard coding is done for a >reason. KEYIN isn't really the same thing .... > >Lee. > What I couldne undertand was the referance to it being a Jap language - what have the Japs ever done for computers? > >How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? > None, they just make darkness the industry standard! > > -- Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Jan 25 16:56:18 1997 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 16:52:20 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee Willis To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SOS compiled BASIC In-Reply-To: <4C00612B93@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: X-Mammoth-Status: Aware MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 654 Lines: 22 On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, Dave Hooper wrote: ;>> > On Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:14:55 +0000, Dave Hooper said: [snipped example] ;>> > Yes but that doesn't need to be compiled does it? ;> ;>Never said it did. I wasn't talking about compilation, I was talking ;>about KEYIN - in reference to 'KEYIN is crappy and you can always do ;>things a better way'. I was just making a point! Erm I think I _actually_ said that I'd never found a use for it that I couldn't do another way. I never said ALWAYS ... Lee. How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, they just make darkness the industry standard! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 27 13:34:37 1997 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199701271333.NAA02834@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: SOS OS's To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no (sam users) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 13:33:11 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 15315 Lines: 309 OS's ---- Sorry about the length. I intent to formalise the OS based structure I think we have all been assuming we will implement on the SAMSON. Note that throughout this posting I will use the terms: Hooks, entry points, vectors etc. to mean the same thing. I am not certain as to the best and easiest to use way of entering the standardised routines mentioned here. I think perhaps vectors are the wisest choice. The most important suggestion in this proposal is the concept of the standard OS modules, a little different and a little better than any considered before. For a start, I split the OS's into a few categories, note that where an individual OS can fall into more than one category it should include one set of entry points for each category it could possibly fall into to, this can only ever be found convenient to the user. Note that all of the entrance points to the various OS's are standardised so that, say, the PC compatible keyboard output behaves in EXACTLY the same way as the output to the OS that drives the standard SAM keyboard. Likely discrepancies in the SOS hardware are one reason why the OS modules are necessary. It is also important to note that not all of the OS types that are going to be used while the system is running need to be installed when the system is started up, this would be a great waste of memory and time. Rairly used OS modules can be added/installed or removed/uninstalled from memory as required. THE STANDARD OS TYPES: -each OS of the same type behaves in the same way, with the same number and relative location of entry points. Memory Allocation OS, MAOS The current Memory allocation table in the SAM will be unsuitable in the SAMSON, mainly because of its withstricted size. A new table is required. The best way of accessing this new table would be in the form of an OS, with a set of simple entry points to perform the various operations such as allocate a number of pages of given type demanding the minimum of hassle from the programmer requesting the service. In the current table, the follow tokens are used: 00=Unused Page 20=Utilities page 40=BASIC program 60=DOS page C0=Screen page FF=Non-existent page I propose the following notation for the SAMSON table 00=Unused 10=LowPriorityStorage 20=Utilities 40=BASIC 60=OS 80=GUI A0=Other Code C0=Screen E0=RAM disc The original table only had entries for the machines RAM, but the SAMSON cannot be that simple: +0 to the numbers above for RAM pages; +1 to the numbers above for Flash pages; +2 to the numbers above for ROM pages. And in addition to the increments above, perhaps: +5 for shared memory between a number of machines. So, both the BASIC operating system and BASIC programs in memory tend to have page allocation numbers in the &40-&43 range, both the GUI operating system and applications have numbers in the &80s etc. The interesting thing here is that it would be quite simple to design the entry points to give various priorities to the type of allocations destroyed to make room for the new ones. So, there is no need to deallocate all the memory used by your GUI applications just because you enter BASIC for a second to look something up, you can usually just pop straight back to the GUI and find you don't need to bother re-loading the applications you where using. But if your BASIC program got a bit big BASIC would enter the Allocation OS at such a point as to first look for unused pages, and then perhaps pick on the, relativelyunused GUI ones because of the entry point used. A new concept in the table is the entry I have labelled 'lowPriorityStorage', If there are no unused pages, this is the next type of page the OS will usually pick on (unless of course it is asked to allocate lowPriorityStorage pages). This type would usually be used as a cache type memory for the web browser to remember the most recently visited sites, an extended keyboard memory, etc... Basically all of the stuff thats nice to have but is no important enough to give an out of memory problem. Directory Based File Storage and Retrieval, includes: DOS 3.5inch Disc; HDOS Hard Disc; MDOS RAM Disc; NOS Network; CDOS CD system. Directory-Less File Storage and Retrieval, includes: TOS audio cassette tape OS; VTOS VHS Video backup storage; SOS Scanner; MPOS Monochrome Printer; CPOS Colour Printer (note that colour printer driver s will also need to provide MPOS entry points to the module; VOS Video, could be used by digitaliser or GENLOCK etc... Key and Cursor input, includes: KOS Standard parallel SAM keyboard; SKOS PC compatible serial keyboard; MOS SAM Mouse; SMOS PC compatible serial mouse; DJOS Digital Joystick; AJOS Analogue Joystick; LPOS Light Pen; LGOS Light Gun; SWOS Steering wheel. Floating Point Calculator At the moment the floating point calculator is far too much hassle to use. It is to be used by things outside of BASIC so it would be wise to give it 'OS status' and an style OS interface, this also has the advantage of easy upgrade ability. In fact, its current 'turning machine' format is a fair bit of trouble to use anyway, we may decide that it would be desirable to, (in addition?) give it an alternative access method for the most common, simple calculations. Either way, it deserves to become an OS module. Like all OSs it would be designed to be as easy to use by external programs as possible. File Processing: DCOS The DOS's de/compression software COS A number of these conversion routines to convert various different filetypes from other computer systems to SAM ones an vice versa. One of the major reasons for choosing one application over another of the same type on other machines tend to be the file formats that they can used for input and output. Such an OS, however it was implemented, would solve this problem. OCROS OCR software, this is a great example of why OS' s need to be loadable during the usage of the system. There is not much case to argue there is the need for constantly memory resident OCR software on all machines with scanners. If the machine ever moves towards a keyboardless interface, this could easily also be given Key and Cursor entry points. Strict output: All of the graphical and sound routines for the GUI will be handled by OS's of this type. An application that required the use of a particularly snazzy handling of optimised polygons etc. would probably include an extra OS of this type in order to make use of the card in a friendly way. The concept of putting the Hook codes to use the DOS, and the logic required to use them from BASIC in the same place was a great one. However, in the case of our DOS the Hook codes did not describe the full set of operations and where flawed, in f act I would not be surprised to learn they are not used at all internally. If it is made simple for the OS units I describe to also contain the logic for the BASIC commands to make use of them held within same blocks of code, then this will encourage future designers to include routines for their modules so they can be access from BASIC, so improve and expand the language. Each OS unit has exactly the same entry points as the others in the same broad type. Standard OSs, giving standard results, also have standard ?vars, accessible from BASIC. The SAM keyboardOS and a PC compatible serial keyboard for example could be interchanged without any application, BASIC program or raw machine code program noticing as ALL of such programs will use the OS modules to handle such IO. We will use the modules as we will make them so dammed convenient to use! By this I mean that in addition to the standard sensible entry points we need to supply standard entry points that are specifically designed to be used in time critical applications such as games, this is how I see the first materialisation of David's vision of a library of the best/fastest ways of doing things, by putting them in every OS of every machine in standard places to save time in software development, to ensure we get superfast code and solving the problems of worrying about differing hardware all in one go. Exactly the same argument follows for all other OS types. The file choosier on the GUI will be able to use the NOS to load remote files just as easily as it does load files from the local 3.5 inch disc drive, hard drive, or, even if it is developed a year after the chooser's code is written, the CD drive. Of course, we will need a special OS unit to help you choose which of any particular type of OS you wish to use, given a code for the type of OS, it should return the intercept in memory of each of the Oss relevant first entry points (the other points could be calculated relative to this) Each OS here is described by its 1 to 4 +2 letter ????OS name. They also need full names; each OS should have a, say 14 letter 'unique' brief description of it e.g. "S AM keyboard", "PC key v7.80", "PrintheadScan", "DigitalJoyStck", "mtonTracerBall", "CurrSpeachSyn", etc... A game programmer need but ask the OS finder unit to list all of the key and cursor input types, it could then stick their all their full names into the menu, make use of the standard calibration routines, and do a bit of hard coding in the main program to make the input routine call the relevant super optimised routine. The output of the superfast routine is standardised to give exactly the same hardware independent output so the game doesnt need to know if it is using a user defined keyboard layout, qaop, a digital joystick, an artificially quantised trackerball or a mouse, etc... Just as easy to code as messing about with IN instructions yourself, probably results in just as, if not faster code with any slightly complicated arrangement and is infinitely compatible. In the completed system, with its 3 main processor based sections, I can see the OS structure as being a winning one, each OS will need provide a byte to indicate which type of processor it runs on. I would imagine that it would be wisest to keep most of the file storage and retrieval types on the Z80 so that they can do their jobs in parallel with the main Z380 program execution, the same goes for the key and cursor input OSs in general. As stated above the graphics and sound OS modules will tend to be executed, again in parallel on the RISC 'card. Example: A key & cursor OS, say, a current style SAM keyboard. HOOKS: 'INSTAL' to install the OS. Let the OS manager know where to find it, it could start up any interrupts it; may need, copy the default OSvars to RAM, etc; 'UNINSTAL' to uninstall the OS and kill its interrupts, loose any particular OSvars; 'KILLJOBS' All OS's should really have a 'kill all current jobs (returning error messages to tasks if necessary)'; 'RCONFIG' to return the current keyboard layout and cursor emulation stats. e.g. keys used to move the virtual cursor, its weight, X/Ypositions and X/Yvelocity, all in standard format; 'DCONFIG' restore default configuration; 'PCONFIG' to program the configuration; 'TOPKEY' returns the key at the top of the keyboard buffer; 'COULDKEY' returns a 1 or 0 to say whether a particular key could be being pressed, very useful in games, see later; etc... It is important to note that the keyboard is 'soft' at the OS level, this means that modifications to the layout made in BASIC are still active when entering the GUI or real programs. This is an advantage. The area of memory used to store the extended keycode definitions needs to be much larger than it is on the SAM, or needs to be dynamic. KVARS: 'WHATKEY' the key currently being pressed 'XVEL' the horizontal velocity of the virtual cursor' etc.... BASIC interface All of the key and cursor modules basic interfaces work in exactly the same way so may be stored centrally unlike, say that of the File Storage an retrieval modules. They do little more than call the hook codes of the relevant OS. All of the operations in and of BASIC, the GUI etc. at all levels make use of the OS modules. It would be necessary to, in some way, chose the current input OS for the k channel using the OPEN and CLOSE commands in BASIC. INPUT, GET$, Xmouse etc. is always the input from the currently selected k key and cursor input channel, unless another channel is selected with the # operator in the statement. One major omission of all BASICS I remember using is lack of a 'COULDKEY' command that works ignoring all of the fears about clashing key combinations to say whether a key could be being pressed or not. Its omission gets very annoying and to avoid it I have often found myself using things like the IN command in BASIC which should not be necessary for such a task. The syntax of the new construct would work like... PRRINT (COULDKEY = " Q") displays a 1 if the Q key appears to be being pressed or a 0 if there is no chance that it is, of course this will never be perfectly accurate but it is still worth while having in BASIC. Each OS is given a short tittle, in this case it is, KOS, this implies that there exists a BASIC function KVAR to address the OS's particular setup. I strongly suggest that we upgrade these from the simple n+ functions they are today and allow ones that can keep track of scattered variables, as may be the case if there are dynamic aspects to any OSs. There also needs to be another form of this that can easily be followed by an M_Code program. Cunning design is required to cater for the wide range of numbers of keys provided by the different key & cursor hardware. It varies from the 1 key of an analogue mouse implemented as such, through the 5 key digital joystick, and through the analogue mouse, graphics tablet or joystick cunningly configured through the use of 'PCONFIG' to implement one of 48 different 'keypresses' when the single button is pressed with the X and Y positions in special ranges, through the 72 key SAM keyboard to the 10 thousand key lighting console. Notice how pure key pressable hardware such as the keyboard should always be given virtual, and highly configurable virtual cursor status in addition to the obvious keypresses, and the analogue devices OS's should also be programable as having 'digital' properties. This is a simple virtue to be pursued in the design of the new machine: all OS's should have as much functionality as possible. The case mentioned of the graphics tablet is such a classic example of this, if touching the tablet with the pen in particular positions can be reported by the OS as being a 'keypress' then there is no reason why you cannot draw a keyboard in the bottom quarter of your tablet and use it as a keyboard in ANY application on a SAMSON that makes use of digital input. As this is done at the OS level it is automatically compatible with everything, the same effect could NOT be emulated generally by modifying any individual application. The advantages in other OS applications will not always be this clear, but this flexibility should always be strived for. Thats about it for no, sorry again about the length but I think someone had to say what I did. Numb. From imc Mon Jan 27 14:20:17 1997 Subject: Re: SOS OSs To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:20:17 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199701271333.NAA02834@BITS.bris.ac.uk> from "Stephen Harding" at Jan 27, 97 01:33:11 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 2202 Lines: 54 On Mon, 27 Jan 1997 13:33:11 +0000 (GMT), Stephen Harding said: > OS's > ---- > Sorry about the length. Yes, but are you sorry about the blatant misuse of an apostrophe or about the fact that you edited this on a !*@#$ing Microsoft word processor that ate all your quote characters and turned them into an unprintable mess? > I intent to formalise the OS based structure I think we have all been ^ ^ (I wish people wouldn't word-process emails and news articles, at least without exporting them as ASCII before posting them. It's the source of almost as much trouble on the net as the news-reading bit of Netscape). > Floating Point Calculator > At the moment the floating point calculator is far too much hassle to > use. Says you. > In fact, its current 'turning machine' format is a fair bit of trouble > to use anyway, we may decide that it would be desirable to, (in > addition?) give it an alternative access method for the most > common, simple calculations. It is not in 'turning machine' format. It is not in Turing machine format either. It is a stack-based machine and it's written principally for the BASIC interpreter so you ain't going to change it. Besides which, there's nothing wrong with a stack-based calculator. Some HP calculators and also Forth and PostScript are also stack-based. > Its > omission gets very annoying and to avoid it I have often found myself > using things like the IN command in BASIC which should not be necessary > for such a task. Why not? It's simple. IF NOT (IN &FBFE BAND 1) THEN ... If you have lots of this stuff to do then you probably shouldn't be writing it in BASIC anyway. > The syntax of the new construct would work like... > PRRINT (COULDKEY = " Q") displays a 1 if the Q key appears to be being > pressed or a 0 if there is no chance that it is Inventing new words left right and centre is not good for the language. Soon there won't be any words left that you can use for variables. Besides, the above syntax is clearly rubbish (aside from the fact that there's no such thing as PRRINT). imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 27 14:28:16 1997 Subject: Re: SOS OS's To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:23:41 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Simon.Cooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <199701271333.NAA02834@BITS.bris.ac.uk> from "Stephen Harding" at Jan 27, 97 01:33:11 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Message-Id: <97Jan27.142540+0000_gmt.46944-542+112@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 4715 Lines: 97 > I propose the following notation for the SAMSON table > 00=Unused > 10=LowPriorityStorage > 20=Utilities > 40=BASIC > 60=OS > 80=GUI > A0=Other Code > C0=Screen > E0=RAM disc > The original table only had entries for the machines RAM, > but the SAMSON cannot be that simple: > +0 to the numbers above for RAM pages; > +1 to the numbers above for Flash pages; > +2 to the numbers above for ROM pages. > And in addition to the increments above, perhaps: > +5 for shared memory between a number of machines. Yuck... who allocates the numbers then? THis is the way that the memory allocation system should *not* work. Numbers housld be requested and allocated dynamically, at program initialisation/load time. See the Macintosh toolkit for detials (if you want to(. > So, both the BASIC operating system and BASIC programs in memory tend to > have page allocation numbers in the &40-&43 range, both the GUI operating > system and applications have numbers in the &80s etc. It's a pointless system -- why do you need to identify which programs are using what memory block in terms of identifier numbers? Not only that, but what happens if you run the same program twice? How does it work out which memory pages it can remove from the tbale and which it can't? > The interesting thing here is that it would be quite simple to design the > entry points to give various priorities to the type of allocations > destroyed to make room for the new ones. So, there is no need to > deallocate all the memory used by your GUI applications just because you > enter BASIC for a second to look something up, you can usually just pop > straight back to the GUI and find you don't need to bother re-loading the > applications you where using. But if your BASIC program got a bit big > BASIC would enter the Allocation OS at such a point as to first look for > unused pages, and then perhaps pick on the, relativelyunused GUI ones > because of the entry point used. You're talking about a Mac OS/Windows method here... NAmely dynamic resource loading/dynamically linked library system. > A new concept in the table is the entry I have labelled > 'lowPriorityStorage', If there are no unused pages, this is the next type > of page the OS will usually pick on (unless of course it is asked to > allocate lowPriorityStorage pages). This type would usually be used as a > cache type memory for the web browser to remember the most recently > visited sites, an extended keyboard memory, etc... Basically all of the > stuff thats nice to have but is no important enough to give an out of > memory problem. Why not put priority values and locks in the memory allocation structure, so that you can have any memory "tag" ID, with an associated priority, ability for it to be relocated in memory, handles (dereferenced pointers), etc? > Floating Point Calculator > In fact, its current 'turning machine' format is a fair bit of trouble > to use anyway, we may decide that it would be desirable to, (in > addition?) give it an alternative access method for the most > common, simple calculations. Either way, it deserves to become an > OS module. Like all OSs it would be designed to be as easy to use > by external programs as possible. Depends on the base processor -- Multiply and Divide are proivded by the Z380 -- so there's no need for it. But I do agree that a better access method, or rather a more divorced from BASIC way of using the fp calculator is neeeded. > File Processing: > DCOS The DOS's de/compression software > COS A number of these conversion routines to convert various different > filetypes from other computer systems to SAM ones an vice versa. One of > the major reasons for choosing one application over another of the > same type on other machines tend to be the file formats that they > can used for input and output. Such an OS, however it was implemented, > would solve this problem. This is a very difficult thing to implement... sure -- feel free to put hooks in the OS to filter libraries, etc, but do it that way - filter the data. Before working further on this, you need to look at the OpenDoc structure in the Mac environment, and the Microsoft OLE system. > OCROS OCR software, this is a great example of why OS' s need to be > loadable during the usage of the system. There is not much case to > argue there is the need for constantly memory resident OCR software on > all machines with scanners. If the machine ever moves towards a > keyboardless interface, this could easily also be given Key and > Cursor entry points. Hmmmmmmmmmm..... this would be better as an application, not an API. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 27 14:28:16 1997 Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:25:59 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Wells <93tgw@eng.cam.ac.uk> To: sam users Subject: Re: SOS OS's In-Reply-To: <199701271333.NAA02834@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2536 Lines: 72 On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Stephen Harding wrote: [Quite a bit of stuff that I'm still working through] > Directory Based File Storage and Retrieval, includes: > DOS 3.5inch Disc; > HDOS Hard Disc; > MDOS RAM Disc; > NOS Network; > CDOS CD system. Filer. Limited entry points. Let the Filer decide what device it is talking to. Then you can add drivers for different devices into the filer without having to re-write everything. > VTOS VHS Video backup storage; What? > MPOS Monochrome Printer; > CPOS Colour Printer (note that colour printer driver s will also need > to provide MPOS entry points to the module; Printer Driver. Let that decide whether it's printing in colour/b&w/blood. To the program/programmer it is irrelevant. > SWOS Steering wheel. What? > Floating Point Calculator > At the moment the floating point calculator is far too much hassle to > use. > In fact, its current 'turning machine' format is a fair bit of trouble > to use anyway, we may decide that it would be desirable to, (in > addition?) give it an alternative access method for the most > common, simple calculations. [Bit about OS modules snipped] I disagree with most of this. The FPC is tricky, but not impossible to use. However I cannot see a better system that is as flexible. > COS [Snipped] Jobs for standalone applications, not something to bog the system down with. > OCROS OCR software, this is a great example of why OS' s need to be > loadable during the usage of the system. There is not much case to > argue there is the need for constantly memory resident OCR software on > all machines with scanners. If the machine ever moves towards a > keyboardless interface, this could easily also be given Key and > Cursor entry points. What? > The concept of putting the Hook codes to use the DOS, and the logic > required to use them from BASIC in the same place was a great one. > However, in the case of our DOS the Hook codes did not describe > the full set of operations and where flawed, in f act I would not be > surprised to learn they are not used at all internally. The point of hook codes is to provide a consistent interface for use of the routines from outside the module. There is no point in using them internally. [+ Lots more, which I'm still reading] As a general point, I feel that you're being far too specific with your definition of things - Generalise the definitions some more, and allow the generic devices to have specific extras added. Tim W. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 27 15:18:29 1997 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199701271500.PAA03158@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: SOS OSs To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no (sam users) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 15:00:27 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1140 Lines: 27 >> OS's >> ---- >> Sorry about the length. > >Yes, but are you sorry about the blatant misuse of an apostrophe or about >the fact that you edited this on a !*@#$ing Microsoft word processor that >ate all your quote characters and turned them into an unprintable mess? > Yes, I am actually, and did not notice it before sending it. You see, I wrote it on my SAM (along with a couple of others) over the holls, wurred it onto the evil alien word processor (the 3rd time I have attemped to use it in my life) to find I needed to correct one occurence of the word 'disk' that crept in, saved the file in what the device apparently wrongly described as ASCII, ftped and mailed. >> omission gets very annoying and to avoid it I have often found myself >> using things like the IN command in BASIC which should not be necessary >> for such a task. > >Why not? It's simple. >IF NOT (IN &FBFE BAND 1) THEN ... > Yes but this is hardware based, my point was to seperate the hardware from the software by making it faster, better and more convenient to use the OS based solutions. Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 27 15:58:52 1997 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: SOS OSs To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 15:58:04 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199701271500.PAA03158@BITS.bris.ac.uk> from "Stephen Harding" at Jan 27, 97 03:00:27 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 68 Lines: 3 Hmmmm. Yet another piece of interesting sounding Vapourware! -Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 27 17:24:45 1997 Message-Id: <199701271724.SAA27375@dxmint.cern.ch> From: Allan Skillman Subject: The Great SimCoupe Logo and icon competition To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 27 Jan 97 18:24:12 MET Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2211 Lines: 49 Hello All, Things have been a little busy of late at work so I haven't managed to get around to posting this message until now. I've finally finished the first full distribution of SimCoupe. Before I unleash it to the world in general I would like to ask a couple of favours from the guys (and gals) in the list. First I would like people to try and build the software on a wide range of platforms. Anyone willing to get there hands dirty on the following system can drop me a line : DEC OSF/1 aka. Digital Unix DEC Ultrix Sun Solaris HP HPUX SGI IRIX Linux (intel,68k,AXP) IBM AIX NetBSD There are always a few include/library definitions which have to be sorted out for different systems. My second request to to all the artists out there, I know there are some good ones among you, I've seen the demos! SimCoupe needs a natty logo to go on the Web page and in the program. It also needs a nice desktop icon for the program. For the logo I'm looking for something which can be displayed on a SAM display in Mode 4 - this is related to how I intend to implement the user interface to the emulator. For the icon I need something which is quite small (icon sized :) and doesn't use too many colours, most UNIX workstations have 8 bit displays and so any more than 16 colours is pretty wasteful. Oh yes I said it was a competition, well sort of, the prize will only really be to have your name in the emulator. Then again we wouldn't be in the list if we were not used to give our all for free would we :) Allan +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Now available! XCoupe, the one and only SAM Coupe emulator | | *** http://www.hep.ucl.ac.uk/~ajs/xcoupe *** | +------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ | Allan Skillman | "There are five flavours of resons, the | | HEPP Group | elementary particles of magic : up, down, | | University College London | sideways, sex-appeal and peppermint." | | Email : ajs@hep.ucl.ac.uk | - Terry Pratchett (Lords and Ladies) | +------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 27 17:35:09 1997 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 17:39:32 +0000 Subject: Re: The Great SimCoupe Logo and icon competition Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <94BBF509F8@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 322 Lines: 8 > implement the user interface to the emulator. For the icon I need something > which is quite small (icon sized :) and doesn't use too many colours, most .. how big is icon sized...? 32 x 32 is common, but hey, it might be too small. Give us a clue. __ |_)ave |-|ooper From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Jan 27 20:31:31 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <18605.199701272030@lily.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: The Great SimCoupe Logo and icon competition To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 20:30:16 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199701271724.SAA27375@dxmint.cern.ch> from "Allan Skillman" at Jan 27, 97 06:24:12 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 264 Lines: 7 > platforms. Anyone willing to get there hands dirty on the following system > can drop me a line : > Sun Solaris I can probably try this one, if you give me instructions :) You might want to pick someone with more knowledge, though, if you've got the choice. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 28 10:09:29 1997 Message-Id: <199701281008.LAA26924@dxmint.cern.ch> From: Allan Skillman Subject: Re: The Great SimCoupe Logo and icon competition To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 28 Jan 97 11:08:29 MET In-Reply-To: <94BBF509F8@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk>; from "Dave Hooper" at Jan 27, 97 5:39 pm Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 809 Lines: 19 > > .. how big is icon sized...? > 32 x 32 is common, but hey, it might be too small. Give us a clue. 32x32 would be fine Allan -- +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Now available! XCoupe, the one and only SAM Coupe emulator | | *** http://www.hep.ucl.ac.uk/~ajs/xcoupe *** | +------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ | Allan Skillman | "There are five flavours of resons, the | | HEPP Group | elementary particles of magic : up, down, | | University College London | sideways, sex-appeal and peppermint." | | Email : ajs@hep.ucl.ac.uk | - Terry Pratchett (Lords and Ladies) | +------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 28 10:58:20 1997 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199701281100.LAA05947@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: OSs To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no (sam users) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 11:00:59 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3159 Lines: 73 >> MPOS Monochrome Printer; >> CPOS Colour Printer (note that colour printer driver's will also >> need to provide MPOS entry points to the module; > > Printer Driver. Let that decide whether it's printing in > colour/b&w/blood. To the program/programmer it is irrelevant. The routines would be the printer drivers! The only new thing I am suggesting is a method for easily locating and selecting the printer driver you want, ensuring they all have identical entry points and are completely compatable, so allowing writers of software to write code that can use absolutely any printer driver that will ever be written in one simple routine to call a couple of hook codes. That cannot be bad. > I disagree with most of this. The FPC is tricky, but not impossible to > use. However I cannot see a better system that is as flexible. Whether it needs changing or not is a side issue, it would still need to become a 'standard OS module' so it can be used conveniently outside of BASIC and be easily upgradable. >> The concept of putting the Hook codes to use the DOS, and the logic >> required to use them from BASIC in the same place was a great one. >< our DOS hooks are crap> >> > The point of hook codes is to provide a consistent interface for use of > the routines from outside the module. There is no point in using them > internally. True, but all of the operations provided by BASIC should be achievable by purely using the Hook codes to do DOS functions if the Hook codes are comprehensive and complete, in our current case they are not. It is not really of question of whether they are or are not actually used internally. > As a general point, I feel that you're being far too specific with your > definition of things - Generalise the definitions some more, and allow > the generic devices to have specific extras added. Giving the tape recorder, scanners, printers and digitisers IDENTICAL entry points so they appear the same to the system is too specific and I should generalise more? Come off it! I have not stated that the OS's must ONLY have the well defined entry points, but it is probably a good idea else the programmer who wants to use these things will have to worry about looking at version numbers etc. which is not the way to go. > Tim W >> OCROS OCR software, If the machine ever moves towards a >> keyboardless interface, this could easily also be given Key and >> Cursor entry points. >> >Hmmmmmmmmmm..... this would be better as an application, not an API. > >Simon No it would not. The graphics tablet OS uses the 'live check' hook code of the currently selected OCR OS module to look at the local area around the stylus, it identifies that you have drawn a letter 'q' in the bottom right of the tablet, it has been pre-programmed return a 'q' keypress if a q is drawn here. You now have the power to 'press' the q key in any application, BASIC or real program on the SAMSON. Perhaps in this case used to quit out of the art program, or to write a document in ANY SOS wordprocessor, database, the desktops file chooser, anything. This is a good thing to be able to do. Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 28 11:04:04 1997 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 11:02:13 +0000 From: Dan Doore To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: The Great SimCoupe Logo and icon competit - Reply Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 180 Lines: 9 > Linux (intel,68k,AXP) Will there still be a Linux Boot-disc version available for PC Users. It ran at about 70% speed on my old P75, I now wish to try it on my P166... Dan. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 28 11:18:56 1997 Message-Id: <199701281117.MAA03831@dxmint.cern.ch> From: Allan Skillman Subject: Re: The Great SimCoupe Logo and icon competit - Reply To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 28 Jan 97 12:17:46 MET In-Reply-To: ; from "Dan Doore" at Jan 28, 97 11:02 am Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 981 Lines: 22 > > Will there still be a Linux Boot-disc version available for PC Users. > The initial distribution will be source only, but I'll put together a boot disk version as soon as I can. With the new version of Linux I can put the boot and root pieces on a single disk, which will simplify things. Allan -- +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Now available! XCoupe, the one and only SAM Coupe emulator | | *** http://www.hep.ucl.ac.uk/~ajs/xcoupe *** | +------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ | Allan Skillman | "There are five flavours of resons, the | | HEPP Group | elementary particles of magic : up, down, | | University College London | sideways, sex-appeal and peppermint." | | Email : ajs@hep.ucl.ac.uk | - Terry Pratchett (Lords and Ladies) | +------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 28 11:20:06 1997 Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 11:20:14 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Paveley To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: The Great SimCoupe Logo and icon competition In-Reply-To: <199701271724.SAA27375@dxmint.cern.ch> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 744 Lines: 22 On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Allan Skillman wrote: > First I would like people to try and build the software on a wide range of > platforms. Anyone willing to get there hands dirty on the following system > can drop me a line : > > SGI IRIX I've got access to one of these, though I'm not used to messing about with include/libraries. Saying that, I've had an older version working on one! > There are always a few include/library definitions which have to be sorted > out for different systems. ....@/ .........................................................................@/ Unc - Tim Paveley - http://dplinux.sund.ac.uk/~unc/ Staff of the Monochrome BBS - http://www.mono.org/ Owner of a Sam Coupe - http://www.mono.org/~unc/Coupe/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 28 11:24:11 1997 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 11:22:43 +0000 From: Dan Doore To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: The Great SimCoupe Logo and icon comp - Reply Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 339 Lines: 13 > > Will there still be a Linux Boot-disc version available for PC Users. > The initial distribution will be source only, but I'll put together a > boot disk version as soon as I can. With the new version of Linux I > can put the boot and root pieces on a single disk, which will simplify things. Superb. I look forward to it. Dan. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 28 11:48:52 1997 Subject: Re: OSs To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 11:46:52 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Simon.Cooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <199701281100.LAA05947@BITS.bris.ac.uk> from "Stephen Harding" at Jan 28, 97 11:00:59 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Message-Id: <97Jan28.114740+0000_gmt.46932-540+186@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1306 Lines: 28 > >> OCROS OCR software, If the machine ever moves towards a > >> keyboardless interface, this could easily also be given Key and > >> Cursor entry points. > >> > >Hmmmmmmmmmm..... this would be better as an application, not an API. > > > >Simon > > No it would not. The graphics tablet OS uses the 'live check' hook code of > the currently selected OCR OS module to look at the local area around the > stylus, it identifies that you have drawn a letter 'q' in the bottom > right of the tablet, it has been pre-programmed return a 'q' keypress if a > q is drawn here. You now have the power to 'press' the q key in any > application, BASIC or real program on the SAMSON. Perhaps in this case > used to quit out of the art program, or to write a document in ANY SOS > wordprocessor, database, the desktops file chooser, anything. > This is a good thing to be able to do. But depending on the model that's used to handle events (ie key queues/mouse event queues), it's simple to have an application which loads up and hooks an instance of itself onto an event, and which also can insert events into the queue... The likelihood of it being used at any point (less than 1% of computer users have graphics tablets) is so low as to not warrant its position as an integral part of the O/S. SImon From imc Tue Jan 28 12:10:46 1997 Subject: Re: The Great SimCoupe Logo and icon competition To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 12:10:46 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <18605.199701272030@lily.csv.warwick.ac.uk> from "Mr P R Walker" at Jan 27, 97 08:30:16 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 359 Lines: 12 On Mon, 27 Jan 1997 20:30:16 +0000 (GMT), Mr P R Walker said: > > Sun Solaris > I can probably try this one, if you give me instructions :) You might > want to pick someone with more knowledge, though, if you've got the > choice. We have some Solaris machines (both Sun and Intel machines!). As far as I know, though, we only have gcc and not cc. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 28 13:45:06 1997 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199701281345.NAA06829@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS OSs To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no (sam users) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:45:51 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1750 Lines: 42 > Hmmmm. Yet another piece of interesting sounding Vapourware! > -Andy I cannot say that I understand this comment, the 'vapourware' you appear to be refering to is the operating system. Is it too much to ask that the operating system be well defined? All the keyboard drivers to be accessed in the same way, all of the directory based file storage/retrieval systems be accessed in the same way and be comprehensive. } But depending on the model that's used to handle events (ie key } queues/mouse event queues), it's simple to have an application which } loads up and hooks an instance of itself onto an event, and which also } can insert events into the queue... Thats a good aspect of the point, "depending on the model that's used to handle events". There are a wide range of programs that would use the OS modules (or device drivers as you lot seem to prefer calling them now), not just thoes that use the GUIs event handling system, games will not want to use an 'event que'! They will want to know what key is being tapped at any one instant, these modules would cater for whatever is wanted AND not distinguish between the hardware. Hooks itself onto an event? It sounds like you are describing something very similar to the OS modules anyway! Why not just call them such? There is nothing particularly magic about them, just the effect of a well integrated and specified system. } The likelihood of it being used at any point (less than 1% of computer } users have graphics tablets) is so low as to not warrant its position as } an integral part of the O/S. } } SImon Come off it! You know it was just an example in one particular OS type, the effects of the modules in general can only make the system more versatile. Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 28 14:28:21 1997 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970128143306.008f6948@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:33:06 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SOS OSs Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1816 Lines: 49 At 13:45 28/01/97 +0000, you wrote: > >Thats a good aspect of the point, "depending on the model that's used to >handle events". There are a wide range of programs that would use the OS >modules (or device drivers as you lot seem to prefer calling them now), >not just thoes that use the GUIs event handling system, games will not >want to use an 'event que'! They will want to know what key is being >tapped at any one instant, these modules would cater for whatever is >wanted AND not distinguish between the hardware. > >Hooks itself onto an event? It sounds like you are describing something >very similar to the OS modules anyway! Why not just call them such? >There is nothing particularly magic about them, just the effect of a well >integrated and specified system. OK -- let me put it another way. We have no need to define an API for an OCR system at this time -- at the very least, no-one in the SAM world at the moment has the skill or knowledge to put one together... > >} The likelihood of it being used at any point (less than 1% of computer >} users have graphics tablets) is so low as to not warrant its position as >} an integral part of the O/S. >} >} SImon > >Come off it! You know it was just an example in one particular OS type, >the effects of the modules in general can only make the system more >versatile. Woah... I didn't know how serious you were about all this... Rule one of operating system design: Work out what you need as the core parts, then design how they work. As the core's the most important, concentrate on that. So, we've got 4 core areas: Memory / resource allocation Disk/storage access Input/output / system control Video display. When you've worked out them in detail, concern yourself with the rest. Until then, there's no point. Generalise, etc... SImon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 28 14:36:36 1997 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:35:19 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee Willis To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: The Great SimCoupe Logo and icon competition In-Reply-To: <199701271724.SAA27375@dxmint.cern.ch> Message-ID: X-Mammoth-Status: Aware MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1425 Lines: 40 On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Allan Skillman wrote: ;>First I would like people to try and build the software on a wide range of ;>platforms. Anyone willing to get there hands dirty on the following system ;>can drop me a line : ;> ;> Sun Solaris I can try this if you want ... ;> ;>My second request to to all the artists out there, I know there are some ;>good ones among you, I've seen the demos! SimCoupe needs a natty logo ;>to go on the Web page and in the program. It also needs a nice desktop ;>icon for the program. For the logo I'm looking for something which can be ;>displayed on a SAM display in Mode 4 - this is related to how I intend to ;>implement the user interface to the emulator. For the icon I need something ;>which is quite small (icon sized :) and doesn't use too many colours, most ;>UNIX workstations have 8 bit displays and so any more than 16 colours ;>is pretty wasteful. Try Steve Pick who can be contacted on AJBA0048@newi.ac.uk, I don't think he's on this list, but he's very good at this sort of thing ... ;> ;>Oh yes I said it was a competition, well sort of, the prize will only ;>really be to have your name in the emulator. Then again we wouldn't ;>be in the list if we were not used to give our all for free would we :) ;> ;>Allan Lee. How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, they just make darkness the industry standard! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Jan 28 15:21:02 1997 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 15:25:06 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS OSs Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 945 Lines: 19 > Thats a good aspect of the point, "depending on the model that's used to > handle events". There are a wide range of programs that would use the OS > modules (or device drivers as you lot seem to prefer calling them now), > not just thoes that use the GUIs event handling system, games will not > want to use an 'event que'! They will want to know what key is being > tapped at any one instant, these modules would cater for whatever is > wanted AND not distinguish between the hardware. I don't understand how the keyboard input is being generalised to incorporate mouse control - the difference, or indeed similarity, between keyboard and mouse control is hardly application-independent, so I don't see how this generalisation can be made. Oh - and many games would in fact want an event queue, even for keys. ^^ __ |_)ave |-|ooper From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Jan 29 11:27:01 1997 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199701291128.LAA10073@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re:SOS OSs To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no (sam users) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:28:54 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 4457 Lines: 110 >> Come off it! You know it was just an example in one particular OS type, >> the effects of the modules in general can only make the system more >> versatile. > > Woah... I didn't know how serious you were about all this... We will never get it finnished at the rate we are going, if we are not serious then is it's time to give up. > Rule one of operating system design: > Work out what you need as the core parts, then design how they work. > As the core's the most important, concentrate on that. > > So, we've got 4 core areas: > > Memory / resource allocation > Disk/storage access > Input/output / system control > Video display. > > When you've worked out them in detail, concern yourself with the rest. > Until then, there's no point. Generalise, etc... > > SImon That was the point of the post! I did not choose these obvious 'OS module'/'device driver' types, I chose the much more practical(?): 1) Memory Allocation OS, MAOS; 2) Directory Based File Storage and Retrieval; 3) Directory-Less File Storage and Retrieval; 4) Key and Cursor input; 5) Floating Point Calculator; 6) File Processing; 7) Strict output (graphics and sound). These are chosen with the programmer and the user in mind, not just their logical purpose. I proposed that every single type of 'OSmodule' that can be written for the system can and will fall into one or more of these types. And what is more, every single OS module in one of these types can be given EXACTLY THE SAME entry points and responses. So when you design the entry points and general operations of, say the key and cursor mods we MUST think about both the mouse and the graphics tablet, even if the graphics tablet is miles and miles off. I gave the wide and varied example of each of these types to illustrate just what sort of thing falls into each type, once we specify the operation of each of these 7 types we will have specified the operation of every single piece of hardware or important piece of generic software we will design for a very long time, this should speed up development if anything. We just need to think about everything when specifying these 7 similar things, and strive to get it right first time. DAVE> I don't understand how the keyboard input is being generalised to DAVE> incorporate mouse control - the difference, or indeed similarity, DAVE> between keyboard and mouse control is hardly DAVE> application-independent, so I don't see how this generalisation can DAVE> be made. DAVE> |_)ave |-|ooper Aha, I see where I badly explained it before. Indeed, the key and cursor modules could in effect be inplemented as 2 different module types, I thought I made this clear by saying how the analogue devices could be used to implement 'virtual keypresses' in addition to their usual position type input. You can see this from the way I loosely split the KVARS into two groups, 'WHATKEY' as the example of the current key being pressed, 'XVEL' as an example, to suggest the current x velocity. The advantage of combining these two (different) things into one type of module is the strive to achieve the single, simple virtue I tried to emphasise throughout the suggestion: 'All OSs should have as much functionality as possible'. It will force people who write OS modules to do with analogue or digital device to include code to allow them to act as both. Because of this, you can rest assured that: The keyboard will have a highly re-configurable virtual cursor that can be used on the desktop; The graphics tablet could be used to control the GUI cursor and can be taught to act as a keyboard; The graphics tablet will work with every single SOS art and CAD program ever written, even thoes written before the tablet is designed; The mouse can be taught to move left very fast if you press the left mouse button; The mouse buttons can be used to perform any operation on the desktop which is linked to a specified keypress, or series of keypresses; The analogue joystick could be used to play any digital joystick game; The analogue joystick could be configured to play checkered flag (i.e. slow turn left = s, fast turn left = a); The trackerball could be used in any task designed for a joystick; The digital joystick could be used to control the GUI cursor; The speach recogniser could be used to control the cursor and allow you to dictate a message to any wordprocessor, database, etc. The list goes on. Numbly. Good idea or bad idea? From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Jan 29 15:20:21 1997 Message-Id: <199701291518.QAA08030@dxmint.cern.ch> From: Allan Skillman Subject: SimCoupe v0.3 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 29 Jan 97 16:18:28 MET Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1032 Lines: 22 Hello All, I have put up a web page where you can download a copy of the source distribution of SimCoupe v0.3. It isn't linked up to any other pages at the moment as I want to see how people on the list get on before I make it 'pubic'. Let me know how you get on. The URL is :- http://www.hep.ucl.ac.uk/~ajs/simcoupe/simcoupe_distr.html Allan +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Now available! SimCoupe, the one and only SAM Coupe emulator | | *** http://www.hep.ucl.ac.uk/~ajs/simcoupe/simcoupe_distr.html *** | +------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ | Allan Skillman | "There are five flavours of resons, the | | HEPP Group | elementary particles of magic : up, down, | | University College London | sideways, sex-appeal and peppermint." | | Email : ajs@hep.ucl.ac.uk | - Terry Pratchett (Lords and Ladies) | +------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Jan 29 15:27:19 1997 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 15:31:44 +0000 Subject: Re: SimCoupe v0.3 Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 281 Lines: 8 > moment as I want to see how people on the list get on before I make it > 'pubic'. Let me know how you get on. Eeeek! You mean public I hope!! --- dave --- If you can read this message your browser does not support frames, mime, video, sound, color, text or microsoft stuff. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Jan 29 15:44:07 1997 Message-Id: <199701291543.QAA12870@dxmint.cern.ch> From: Allan Skillman Subject: Re: SimCoupe v0.3 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 29 Jan 97 16:43:11 MET In-Reply-To: ; from "Dave Hooper" at Jan 29, 97 3:31 pm Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 539 Lines: 15 > Eeeek! You mean public I hope!! > Whoops, hopefully not a Freudian slip! Allan +------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ | Allan Skillman | "There are five flavours of resons, the | | HEPP Group | elementary particles of magic : up, down, | | University College London | sideways, sex-appeal and peppermint." | | Email : ajs@hep.ucl.ac.uk | - Terry Pratchett (Lords and Ladies) | +------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Jan 29 17:08:09 1997 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 17:04:29 +0000 From: Dan Doore To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: SimCoupe v0.3 - Reply Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 499 Lines: 20 > I have put up a web page where you can download a > copy of the source distribution of SimCoupe v0.3. Wahoo! I have just had a read of the README and things are looking good (when the Linux Bootable disc version is done...) Question: How easy is it to make a Linux partition on my PC here at work, and more importantly can it be removed bloody quick before I get a bollocking? I could go trawling the net for this sort of info, but word-of-mouth (or type-of-hand) is usually better. Dan. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Jan 29 18:13:59 1997 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 18:13:57 GMT+0 Subject: Ou est la SAMSon? Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-ID: <6C0B0494D@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 477 Lines: 11 It's three months today since Bob launched the Son of SAM project. Exactly how far have we got? Is there anything that has gone beyond mere designs? I'm planning on putting some more of the SAM2Sam stuff up on my site in the very near future (ie. tonight, if possible) but I would die for a Text to HTML convertor. Anybody know where I can get one from? Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) JohnnaPig OnLine (www.yi.com/home/TeareJohnna) "Great King Rat died today." From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Jan 29 19:06:03 1997 Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 19:05:04 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@kola.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: SAM users list Subject: SimCoupe installation... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 825 Lines: 20 OK.. I've tried installing SimCoupe on these workstations in my home directory. It's running HPUX 9.05 and I'm getting no end of trouble... First a billion warnings about variables defined but not used and it then dares to tell me it can't find X11/Xlib.h etc!! Argh!!! Oh, btw way.. Does it matter that I can only find X11R5 include files on here? Here goes try number 24378457275524748836829809850384878347584 e 4343435! -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Jan 29 19:22:58 1997 Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 14:21:47 -0500 (EST) From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <970129132839_914710486@emout16.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Could everyone read this please. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1959 Lines: 42 Ok folks, I'm back. Sorry to have been missing recently but A) it has taken some time for my machine to recover from a very serious virus infection. B) I've been busy with FORMAT. And C) my daughter has been ill so my spare time has been non- existent of late. Right. I've spent the last two days reading everything, much of it twice. Now don't take this the wrong way, PLEASE.... But could we just take a few steps back, and a very deep breath. Before we go any further we need to get the SRAM card off the ground. Remember that this is to go on the back of the SAM to allow us to get the ROM/MasterDOS/HDOS integrated and working so that we can then think about future development. We seem, somewhere along the line to have lost direction. SAMSON seems to have become the first goal (rather than the ultimate one) and all the talk is of radically new operating systems, GUIs, CLIs, mega graphics, advanced processors and all the rest. Sorrry, but we have to solve one problem at a time. The SRAM board has been designed, Nev has put up the pics on NVG, but so far nobody has taken the time to go back to him and say OK/NOT OK. This poses a problem, to get the board done at an acceptable cost it has to be done at the same time as a couple of others (the main one being the clock/calander). And things are now seriously behind schedule. We need the board for two reasons. First to allow the redevelopment of the existing ROM/DOS/HDOS system. Secondly to sell to end users to make a little money to reinvest in the project. We cannot write a new operating system from scratch for the existing SAM. We need an improved system in order to carry out development work (who would fancy assembling/compiling a 128K file without a full HDOS and a nice size hard drive). It is, I'm afraid, a matter of training the horse before we can build the cart. Sorry to have made this so long, and sorry to appear to gripe, but we do need to get things moving. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Jan 29 20:45:52 1997 Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:44:54 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@kola.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SimCoupe installation... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 846 Lines: 23 On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Justin Skists (which is me!) wrote: > Here goes try number 24378457275524748836829809850384878347584 e 4343435! YAHOOO!!!!!! I've got it working!!! (albiet extremely slowly.. :( ) And after changing some options in the Makefile.X11 and adding something in the CFLAGS area... It's running on a HP 700 series, HPUX 9.05 and X11R5. Anyone need a copy of the Makefile can email me or whatever.. Now to upload a disk... Ermm... -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Jan 30 08:06:39 1997 Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 09:05:30 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9701300805.AA11236@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SimCoupe v0.3 X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 413 Lines: 10 > I have put up a web page where you can download a copy of the source > distribution of SimCoupe v0.3. It isn't linked up to any other pages at the > moment as I want to see how people on the list get on before I make it > 'pubic'. Let me know how you get on. It took me 5 mins. to get it up and running on a Solaris 2.4. Excellent! I am ready to upload the compiled result to nvg if this is desired. -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Jan 30 08:27:45 1997 Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 09:26:17 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9701300826.AA11256@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 890 Lines: 24 > Ok folks, I'm back. Good. > The SRAM board has been designed, Nev has put up the pics on NVG, but so far > nobody has taken the time to go back to him and say OK/NOT OK. This poses a > problem, to get the board done at an acceptable cost it has to be done at the > same time as a couple of others (the main one being the clock/calander). And > things are now seriously behind schedule. This is the Sram2*.zip files, or the sram.zip? The Sram2*.zip was almost unreadable due to its huge size. Now, I do remember browsing them back in november and AFAICR I could not see anything major, which I reported back to the list. > > We need the board for two reasons. First to allow the redevelopment of the > existing ROM/DOS/HDOS system. Secondly to sell to end users to make a little > money to reinvest in the project. Is there anything today which will run withing the SRAM? -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Jan 30 10:22:07 1997 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970130102746.009055d4@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 10:27:46 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 195 Lines: 9 At 09:26 30/01/97 +0100, you wrote: >Is there anything today which will run withing the SRAM? Dunno about the design, but the screen-snapshot software I wrote for the multiROM might ;) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Jan 30 10:25:37 1997 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970130103124.009107c8@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 10:31:24 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 314 Lines: 11 SAMRAM ideas: WE need at least a 32k ROM for this beastie just for booting it up -- 32k, because you can hardly buy anything smaller these days :) I'm gonna look at the SAM MultiROM design again -- it might be better than the new design (in that it can take 512k RAM, 512k SRAM, and it's battery backed) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Jan 30 17:27:04 1997 Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 17:09:09 +0000 (GMT) From: Andrew Collier X-Sender: asc25@navy.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. In-Reply-To: <970129132839_914710486@emout16.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 4967 Lines: 92 On Wed, 29 Jan 1997 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > Before we go any further we need to get the SRAM card off the ground. > Remember that this is to go on the back of the SAM to allow us to get the > ROM/MasterDOS/HDOS integrated and working so that we can then think about > future development. We seem, somewhere along the line to have lost direction. > SAMSON seems to have become the first goal (rather than the ultimate one) and > all the talk is of radically new operating systems, GUIs, CLIs, mega > graphics, advanced processors and all the rest. There have been many suggested changes to the Basic and Dos systems - some cosmetic, some of greater depth and complexity - so many that it will be VERY difficult for any programmer to alter the existing code, even if given the source files. It will be easier to start from scratch; this is not a realistic prospect for the current Sam, but read on. > Sorrry, but we have to solve one problem at a time. I agree that some of the conversation on this list has been looking too far ahead. Graphics cards are not the priority - however I must point out that the "fancy processor" as you put it, IS a priority. I am not experienced enough in hardware to say whether or not Nev's designs will work, but I do hope that it has been designed such that it will be feasible and easy to attach the extra processor - probably the Z380 - and its Ram. Ideally, those two boards will be designed, manufactured and sold in conjunction with each other. It will require only a little more hardware effort at this time, and bring us all *several* steps closer to the end point. > We need the board for two reasons. First to allow the redevelopment of the > existing ROM/DOS/HDOS system. Secondly to sell to end users to make a little > money to reinvest in the project. I understand your reasons for trying to release the SRAM board first, but frankly I cannot see many current Sam users paying for any extra hardware which will make so little difference to their systems. Please remember that Basic, MDos and HDos do already exist and are moderately stable, even as disk-based systems. What advantages will most users (who don't subscribe to this list and don't know about the SamSon idea) see in this SRAM board? Will it not be a high price to pay, for no noticeable change? > We cannot write a new operating system from scratch for the existing SAM. We > need an improved system in order to carry out development work (who would > fancy assembling/compiling a 128K file without a full HDOS and a nice size > hard drive). It is, I'm afraid, a matter of training the horse before we can > build the cart. I don't see a problem with using the currently available DOSs etc to compile the software for a new processor. You don't need a hard disk for 128K files - what we do need is a Z380 assembler, fortunate then that I am working on a fast text editor which should easily cope with big files, and hopefully can be used as the basis for a Z380 cross-assembler. Anyone who may want to write the actual assembly code while I develop the text editor, please get in touch. With such a system, it will be possible to write a small amount of "housekeeping" code for the Z380, which will reside in the SRAM and keep the system generally happy until application software comes along. All it needs to do is, say, load a program from disk (I would be happy to start writing software which could run in this way) Those units can be sold, and will benefit the end-users much more visibly. This does not require that we write a full Z380 O/S from scratch, or a Basic interpreter, or a Gui. These can all be developed as time goes by. Meanwhile Basic and Dos are available on the current Sam by unplugging the boards. To sell an SRAM/Z380 package, we need to have designed the hardware and written A LITTLE BIT of software. Then there will be a saleable product, at which point we can start writing a proper Z380 operating system, with all the fancy bells and whistles. We will be taking one step at a time. We will be keeping people happy meanwhile. I may have said this before, but the eventual SamSon will need to have a specifically designed and written operating system if we are to use anything like the full capabilities of the Z380. It will NOT be appropriate in the long run to have a hacked up version of the existing code, which is why I advocate cutting out the step of altering the ROMs now, as that would only be misplaced effort. > Sorry to have made this so long, and sorry to appear to gripe, but we do need > to get things moving. Please don't feel inhibited about letting your views known, I'm not! But do let this be a sensible conversation unlike some in the past... Unfortunately, with no hardware knowledge, there is little I can be doing currently except developing the cross-assembler - but I don't know very much about the Z380 either. Have you made any progress in acquiring the manuals yet? Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Jan 30 21:42:04 1997 Message-Id: <199701302141.VAA16113@hermes.clara.net> From: David Ledbury To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Organisation: Persona X-Mailer: Atlantis v4.5 Date: Thu, 30 Jan 97 21:37:42 GMT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 132 Lines: 7 Have I missed anything exciting? Busy with helping put Blitz 4 together, so I've not been reading everything properly! David L. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Jan 31 13:51:50 1997 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: your mail To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 13:50:37 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199701302141.VAA16113@hermes.clara.net> from "David Ledbury" at Jan 30, 97 09:37:42 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 436 Lines: 10 > Have I missed anything exciting? > Yes... in your absence West Coast Computers has gone into receivership and a new company called Norwich Technology has bought the rights to the SAM. They planned to release it as a rival to Acorn's Network Computer, but they themselves went bust. Negotiations are currently under way for Escom to buy the SAM rights. Hopefully we should see the SAM on sale in German high streets by the summer... From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Jan 31 15:55:03 1997 Message-Id: <199701311554.QAA13884@dxmint.cern.ch> From: Allan Skillman Subject: SimCoupe update vn 0.4.1 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Fri, 31 Jan 97 16:54:09 MET Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1115 Lines: 24 Hi All, I've just updated the SimCoupe distribution to version 0.4.1. The minor version number upgrade (0.3 -> 0.4) includes better keyboard reading code so less keystrokes should go missing on slow machines. The patch level upgrade relates to a bug uncovered by Andrew Collier when running Mnemodemo II from Fred 72. This would have effected any code which wrote to the clut port with the MSB > 15. Happy emulating! Allan -- +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Now available! SimCoupe, the one and only SAM Coupe emulator | | *** http://www.hep.ucl.ac.uk/~ajs/simcoupe/simcoupe_distr.html *** | +------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ | Allan Skillman | "There are five flavours of resons, the | | HEPP Group | elementary particles of magic : up, down, | | University College London | sideways, sex-appeal and peppermint." | | Email : ajs@hep.ucl.ac.uk | - Terry Pratchett (Lords and Ladies) | +------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Jan 31 20:26:19 1997 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 20:25:03 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Andrew Collier" at Jan 30, 97 05:09:09 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1165 Lines: 24 > that the "fancy processor" as you put it, IS a priority. I am not > experienced enough in hardware to say whether or not Nev's designs will > work, but I do hope that it has been designed such that it will be > feasible and easy to attach the extra processor - probably the Z380 - and > its Ram. Ideally, those two boards will be designed, manufactured and sold > in conjunction with each other. It will require only a little more > hardware effort at this time, and bring us all *several* steps closer to > the end point. I hear what you're saying, but I really think your suggestion that it will only need a little more effort to produce a z380 board is being a bit optimistic! We're talking about using a processor which [probably] none of us have experience of, and (although it may seem only a simple point) the fact that it will have lots of pins means prototypes are hard to make. Also, the high clock rates may require PCB designing skills beyond our capabilities. The main advantage of the new processor will be speed, so go ahead and use the SRAM and be content with the knowledge that some day, some way, your programs will run much faster! -Andy