From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 12:54:59 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961104123512.0091b3a8@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 12:35:12 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SOS - Graphic extras Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 875 Lines: 21 At 12:36 PM 11/4/96 +0100, you wrote: >> Surpose we go for an extremly expensive hardware polygon filling graphics card >> using the strategy suggested in the original posting: >> (not very likely but a possibility in a few years for the upper end of the >> market), a few years later we may find that 3D games based on texture mapped >> ovals are much more popular (this is the way I predict the fasion will go). >> At this point we will have to build another card to handle this (if we try to >> keep up to date). If you go for the Z80 approach we need only change the >> software! > >You get state of the art graphics card for the PC at sub 200 punds. That's >why I propose the SAM-on-ISA idea. Working on a possible hardware solution for the graphics thing... cheap(relatively) and highly powerful... but not that hot on colour. Will get back to you shortly. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 12:54:59 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 12:46:51 GMT+0 Subject: Re: Geneology breeds contempt Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <125B9F9309E@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 213 Lines: 7 Something Samsboss said triggered a thought in my mind (no, honest it did!) Are there any DECENT geneology programs for running on the SAM? Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "They call me Mad The Swine" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 15:05:34 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 12:56:35 GMT+0 Subject: Re: SOS - Graphic extras Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <125EE401D74@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 306 Lines: 9 > Surpose we go for an extremly expensive hardware polygon filling graphics card > using the strategy suggested in the original posting: Do you think we'd get a **proper** version of Elite then? Or would we still be botched around? Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "They call me Mad The Swine" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 15:05:40 1996 From: sh5655@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk (SL Harding) Message-Id: <199611041138.LAA15686@marsh.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS - Graphic extras To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 11:38:02 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <9611041136.AA29620@asmal.edh-net> from "Frode Tenneboe" at Nov 4, 96 12:36:08 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3835 Lines: 81 > > > The original mail suggested a slave processor with a limited number of built in > > commands. > > I suggested a mini (Z80 based) computer, which could be given its own programs > > in its own section of memory which it could run to (in-effect) have an unlimited > > range of commands e.g scroll the screen using an ldir or a series of ldi's, a > > short polygon filling program etc. If we go for the limited macros circuit > > we will always be limited by the operations we deem to be important now as > > opposed to the infinate programming possibilites of a Z80. > > > > I don't mean to be fatalistic or anything, but a Z80 at 6Mhz trying > to move aroundt one meg of screen memory will be sloooow (around > one fram every 2.7962026 seconds). If you want a CPU to handle > screen-shuffling, you need something faster - a lot faster! > Ahh but a day or so ago I suggested the advantages of using a few Z80s with accelerators, that would give a couple of 6-8 times faster Z80s focusing all of their energy in shifting data and you would not lose these chips then improving the resolution/number of colours in the screen display a few years down the road. I am still waiting for someone to rubbish my parallel accelerated Z80s based machine idea. It could work out tricky to design and program but it would be indefinitely expandable. The Z80 in the old machine could be used to monitor the new ones and allocate jobs I surpose. How many 14MHz (wasn't that the accelerators estimate using the old memory structure -should be better if we design the memory around the machine) Z80s does it take to have the same power as a Pentium100 taking into account the crap memory structure, backwards compatibility and crap drivers it has to use in the average setup? I don't think it would be that many -I never use floating point arithmetic that much anyway!!! > Not only that, the resolution will also be determined by on-board > hardware (well, not necessarily, but it will be properitary chippery > anyyway). > I don't intend to use the Z80s to change the resolution! Yes, A few years down the road (de javu) We will need new hardware to give a better display than the new ones we develop for the machine now. When this happens the chances are that the screen memory will be stored in a different arrangement so the hardware we may include to scroll the screen now will be out of date, so even if it is on the main board it will be useless and must be replaced. If we chose to use Z80s they can be just given different programs to run (we may also need to add an extra couple every so often to keep up to date). I prefer this as it is more flexible, If it can be done it would be better all around. The graphics 'card' with the machine should be integrated onto the main board if at all possible (I know thats not the question but I wrote it anyway!) > > Surpose we go for an extremly expensive hardware polygon filling graphics card > > using the strategy suggested in the original posting: > > (not very likely but a possibility in a few years for the upper end of the > > market), a few years later we may find that 3D games based on texture mapped > > ovals are much more popular (this is the way I predict the fasion will go). > > At this point we will have to build another card to handle this (if we try to > > keep up to date). If you go for the Z80 approach we need only change the > > software! > > You get state of the art graphics card for the PC at sub 200 punds. That's > why I propose the SAM-on-ISA idea. > > -Frode > sub 200 pounds is still a lot for a nice screen display! New graphics card for the future SAM should be cheaper as you don't have to throw away processing power each time. numb Am I a minority thinking that this is a great idea if we can pull it off? From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 15:05:41 1996 From: sh5655@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk (SL Harding) Message-Id: <199611041152.LAA15702@marsh.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: The 8 bit SAMSON To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 11:52:00 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <125A36D39BE@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> from "Johnna Teare" at Nov 4, 96 12:40:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1920 Lines: 43 > > Hello, > > > There is one way out of this 'hole of perception' that I can see... > > That same man in the street has all ready been 'programmed' that > > parallel processing is the way of the future! -this 'buzzword' could carry > > us on! > > True, but sadly it takes a lot of money to get buzzwords into peoples > heads. We are fighting an uphill struggle here - we could have the > most fantastic machine in the world and still not convince any > retailers to reccomend SAMSon over an IBM compat. I think that, > initially, we should build the machine for the SAM users, and any > other interested parties, and then, and only then, try and sell the > idea to the great British public. > Ah, but my point was that these buzzwords have all ready been programmed into peoples heads by the big spenders -we could ride the publicity! That is why the suggestion of a Web Browser however impractical is a very good one! To be honest I would not dream of getting a Sam owner onto the web, I would not wish it on my worst enemy! We all have much better things to do with our money and time, but if it sells machines and slowly converts people to the Sam way of thinking it is a good and neccessary thing. > If we ignore the commercial aspect (and this is going back on > something I argued a while ago) for a while until the machine is > built and software is written we can tackle it when we feel the > machine is ready to stand on it's own two feet. > You are correct of course. It would be much better to build the machine we want, but I assume Bob wants to get some of his money back! We can develop a SAMSON emulator for the PC so we can write software for it before it is built -why not club together and systematically write a software pack to sell with the machine, a machine we would be prowed of. > > Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) > "They call me Mad The Swine" > Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 15:05:41 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961104132815.0092dc64@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 13:28:15 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: The doesn't-have-to-be-8-bit SAMSON Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1400 Lines: 31 At 10:38 AM 11/4/96 +0000, you wrote: >> And why did RAM get cheaper? Because sales increased, and that was because >> everybody needed more of it. Are you seriously suggesting that anything >> useful could have been done with a 48K Sam? The screen would take up half >> of all available memory! Why are Sam programs nearly all 512K only now? It >> isn't because we lazy programmers are letting our code get bigger simply >> because we can; the code is bigger because it simply cannot be made >> smaller (or at least not without compromising on features) >> >I think it IS because we are becoming lazy programmers. BZZZZZZZT! Wrong answer ;) On the SAM as it stands, things are taking up more and more memory because it's the only way to code them within strict speed constraints. Also, as things get more complex, they take more memory. >We must be very carefull when we become SuperSam programmers as we will have >more speed and memory to waste. >We should design our GUI to place faily stringent timeslicing and memory with- >stictions on its applications else we will never multitask and head off down a >never ending spiral of doom and destruction that will eventually kill us all... > >Or then again maybe not. Erm.... placing stringent timeslicing restrictions, yes (unless we can get pre-emptive multitasking working). Memory restrictions? Nah... that *shouldn't* be an issue. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 15:05:44 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 12:37:43 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Re : Killer apps. Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <9392A23014@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 468 Lines: 11 > The PCW16 is slow, made by Amstrad, and has a mono monitor. > SAMSON should be faster, have colour, work with a standatd PC monitor or with > the TV, have sound and lots more. And if we can match the price, and have > some good SOHO software, then Amstrad won't be able to stop the sales. > Yes, this is all well and good.. But how are we going to advertise this thing, and make sure the general population know about it? -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 15:05:44 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961104134923.0091d7ec@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 13:49:23 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Graphics processor/sound board Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 983 Lines: 31 Hi everyone, Just waiting for people to get back to me with a cost-per-chip, but how's this for a specification: Graphics and sound processor board: Featuring 33Mhz RISC processor (we can use this for drawing, sorting, other routines etc), fully programmable. Resolution of up to 1024x768 in 16.7 million colours LCD display compatible Genlocking. Palette has MiDGET-style colour control in its 16.7 million colour mode (ie you can use it to colour shift, do fades, etc with a minimum of processing). Hardware 32x? cursor, 4 colour (one is transparent), colours are any from the 16.7M colour palette. (32x? because it's 32 pixels wide, but as deep as you like). 8 stereo DAC outputs, at up to 44.1kHZ. With the processor power available, and 4Mb of memory on board (hey, why not? it's cheap enough these days! :) ), we could use this as a SAM graphics board, with SAA1099 emulation (and high-power sound output as well), and a graphics processor built in. Lovely eh? Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 15:05:45 1996 Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 13:40:41 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Paveley To: Sam Users Mailing List Subject: Subjects Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 684 Lines: 21 Sorry to sound like a moaning git all the time but... COnsidering the amount of mail this list is generating, could people please try to use reasonalbe subject lines, so that people can jump straight to emails they may be mre interested in. For example... One such message had a subject of 'samson cpus' and infact was talking about gui's and cli's... It does get a tad confusing, and it's not that hard to alter the subject line when replying :) Tim ....@/ (Unc of Old Git Productions) .........................................................................@/ Unc - Tim Paveley - http://dplinux.sund.ac.uk/~unc/ Owner of a Sam Coupe - http://www.mono.org/~unc/Coupe/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 15:05:59 1996 Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 14:25:00 GMT From: D.M.Zambonini@cs.cf.ac.uk (D M Zambonini) Message-Id: <199611041425.OAA10858@cadog.cs.cf.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The 8 bit SAMSON Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: KKd1UQz31u/J49bcD6kLfA== Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1288 Lines: 37 > I have to agree with the first comment, 32bit wide data is both waistfull > of time -reading stuff that is not requred and waistfull of memory. > > 8 bits are more than enough, we just need to read thoes 8 bits 4 times as > fast! > > The main cause for the 8bit ->16bit ->32bit ->64bit progression > IS because the man in the street likes big numbers. I was showing > SAMfighter to one of my parents friends (a highly qualified engineer who > had used computers from near the beginning) over the holidys. His first > comment was that he did not realise an 8bit computers could be so smooth. > > I tried to explain how there were lots of smooth spectrum games too and how > little that nasty label '8-bit programmer' actual means. But he COULD NOT > understand. > > We ARE at a disadvantage because of peoples perceptions. > > > > There is one way out of this 'hole of perception' that I can see... > That same man in the street has all ready been 'programmed' that > parallel processing is the way of the future! -this 'buzzword' could carry > us on! > > C9 Numb. Just one thought - wasteful of memory???? PS I've already explained that 4 times as fast isn't always feasible - there **is** a limit to bus speed, you know... DMZ --- [ Arrgggh! Why am I bothering? ] From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 15:05:59 1996 Message-Id: <327E694F.5536@csv.warwick.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 14:08:15 -0800 From: MR P R WALKER Organization: Computing Services X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Fred 74 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 317 Lines: 9 Dan Doore wrote: > > I got Fred 74 through my door on Saturday.... > > Is anybody else having problems running the RGB demo? Don't think so, but I've given up trying to run the Sample disk that I bought from... er... whoever they were at the show. (The stand next to Fred.) Loads, and does absolutely nothing... From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 15:06:00 1996 Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 07:18:11 -0500 From: Neville Young <106166.1560@compuserve.com> Subject: FATS and things To: sam users Message-Id: <199611040946_MC1-B8F-630E@compuserve.com> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 583 Lines: 23 > This is probably the wrong time to ask but why has no one ever written > a dos which puts the FAT in the last sectors of a disk? Fat at the end: been done. Fat at the start: been done Fat in the middle: been done. Fat fragmented all over the disk: been done. Fat duplicated in more than 1 place: been done. Fat on another physical drive: been done. Fat on more than one physical drive: been done Fat on another computer: been done They all have their good and bad points. There's not much new in computing any more. but then I have been at it for over 25 years now. Nev. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 15:06:00 1996 Message-Id: <327E6B06.30D5@csv.warwick.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 14:15:34 -0800 From: MR P R WALKER Organization: Computing Services X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Son Of Sam References: <1.5.4.32.19961030111832.00912704@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 432 Lines: 9 Simon Cooke wrote: > I know it's rather bandwagon grabbing, but I think the SAMSON O/S should > have Java Virtual Machine support as standard. And ActiveX if we can Don't you think that these would be a little over the top? I mean, get things in perspective - you need a powerful computer to be able to run these efficiently on, for example, the PC. While the SAMson is a good idea, are you really sure that it's up to this?? From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 15:06:15 1996 Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 07:18:12 -0500 From: Neville Young <106166.1560@compuserve.com> Subject: Banned words! To: sam users Message-Id: <199611040946_MC1-B8F-630F@compuserve.com> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 223 Lines: 7 > As for all these pleas for more good software - if it was possible > to do ClarisWorks on the Sam, > ~~~~~~ Please dont use that word or I might get violent. Nev (getting divorced from.... - thats right Claris) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 15:06:15 1996 Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 14:20:06 GMT From: D.M.Zambonini@cs.cf.ac.uk (D M Zambonini) Message-Id: <199611041420.OAA10851@cadog.cs.cf.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The 8 bit SAMSON Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: lRmzPBpX14betrvIZPmhDA== Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 983 Lines: 26 > Sounds like you need to sell your SAM, go along to one of those nice young > men a Dixons (Comets or what ever is near you) and make them very happy by > parting with mega-dosh for a machine which only makes one person happy - > Bill Gates. > > Then you can leave the rust of us "way behind the time" SAM users in peace. > You know what my dad used to say - Only a poor workman blames his tools. > > Samsboss > (s)he who must be obeyed. Actually, I build my own PC by buying individual boards from the cheapest supplier. Dixons? Erk. You must be joking - only a complete fool would even consider it. PS I wouldn't say a PC is a **good** computer - it's probably one of the silliest designs I've ever seen ( and one of the most infuriating to program for - just try to make your program work on every individual graphics card - it ain't easy. As for protected mode - hahahahahaha ) DMZ --- [ I'm not blaming the SAM - it's not the **SAMs** fault its become outdated. ] From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 15:06:26 1996 Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 14:46:40 GMT From: D.M.Zambonini@cs.cf.ac.uk (D M Zambonini) Message-Id: <199611041446.OAA10900@cadog.cs.cf.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SimCoupe update, C Compilers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: 6d1HgC+oSngn5/VEEh+sOw== Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1550 Lines: 35 > Hi Guys and Gals > > In a weekend spent dodging rockets, emptying water out of my garage, and > general tidying up I managed to sit down and do some work on SimCoupe. > As I'm getting more confident with 80x86 assembly I desided to have a go > at rewriting parts of the z80 kernel. Luckily gcc's extended asm allows > me to code assembly versions for x86 machines and still have the option of > compiling in the C versions for everyone else. The feature of x86 which > gives the cpu an advantage for z80 emulation is that they (almost) share the > same flag structure - this means I can use the equivalent x86 intstruction > and get most of the flag responses correct :) So far I've done all the > 8bit inc,dec,add,sub,adc,sbc,and,or,xor instructions. Shift, rotate > and bit intstructions will come next. Although they are seldom used > I will probably do neg,cpl etc; and can't resist DAA - nasty to emulate > but the same instruction in x86 (a hang over from 8080). > > I've also replaced part of the memory io with assembly. All in all this > does provide a speedup, but not as much as you might think. It turns out > that the C compiler and optimiser is really good at producing assembly > from C - looking at non specialist code like the memory stuff, I > was hard pressed to do the same operation in hand coded asm with > one or two less instructions! [ snip ] > Allan > -- I'm running DJGPP on the PC at the mo.... do you want a hand by any chance? Oh, and PC graphics are becoming a speciality if you want a DOS version. DMZ --- From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 15:06:26 1996 Message-Id: <327E70DF.3FD8@csv.warwick.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 14:40:31 -0800 From: MR P R WALKER Organization: Computing Services X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The Great Egg Race... References: <9610301523.AA01286@asmal.edh-net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 604 Lines: 13 Frode Tenneboe wrote: > > NB - this is not an invitation for anyone else to tell me how > > great Unix is. I don't care how great you think it is. It "sucks". > Give it 5 years of your life and you can't live without. :) Luckily, I'm only here for three :) I've also discovered that you can get into the Unix network through the PCs, so that's not quite so bad... While it has some of the features I like, it doesn't have a whole load that I'm used to, which is annoying. Ah well, c'est la vie. > who wants a linux port to SAMSON :) All you have to do is find the compiler, and you're away... ;) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 15:06:42 1996 Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 14:27:45 GMT From: D.M.Zambonini@cs.cf.ac.uk (D M Zambonini) Message-Id: <199611041427.OAA10863@cadog.cs.cf.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The 8 bit SAMSON Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: OMhqD/oYg/51NfN/CEqR0w== Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1509 Lines: 44 > > I have to agree with the first comment, 32bit wide data is both waistfull > > of time -reading stuff that is not requred and waistfull of memory. > > > > Take the case of the z80 reading a LD HL,05678h - that would > three reads on an 8-bit bus, two on a 16-bit, and one on a > 32-bit z80 (if there is such a beast). There's no way that > that's wasteful. And so what if we only manipulate one bit > at a time? Reading 8 bits modifying a bit and writing it back > will be just as slow as reading 32 bits, modifying one and > writing them back. In fact, the chances are that the 32 > bit operation would be faster as there aren't that many > new, fast, 8-bit devices. > > Also, with a 32-bit architecture the contention for video > memory is reduced since the video circuitry only needs to > read from RAM one quarter of the frequency as with an > 8-bit architecture. Admittedly this won't make much > difference with the sort of machine we're looking at. > > > We ARE at a disadvantage because of peoples perceptions. > > > > Well, sticking with 8-bits isn't going to help, is it?! > As for the buzzword parallel processing - the chances are > that what we'd be looking at is co-processing, which is > far less impressive. > > -Andy > Thanks for the support... :) Oh, a quick survey of the man in the street that I carried out this morning... When asked whether they would prefer a parallel proccessing machine to their existing computer, most people said:- Wha? I rest my case... :) DMZ --- From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 15:09:13 1996 Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 14:30:49 GMT From: D.M.Zambonini@cs.cf.ac.uk (D M Zambonini) Message-Id: <199611041430.OAA10871@cadog.cs.cf.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Son Of Sam Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: NpUED69YbKPNeMMrGPGhVg== Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 872 Lines: 25 > >> Aaaarrrgggghhh! I've had it! The problem with holding things in ROM > >> is that they get outdated too quickly... just look at all the > >> additions to SAM BASIC. Leave the BIOS to the ROMs, and load > >> EVERYTHING else... BASIC, assemblers, whatever, into RAM. > > > >Well, thats the whole idea of having battery backed SRAM / EEPROM to > >store programs / utilities that are loaded/accessed by the Boot-up > >ROM / BIOS and can be overwritten / upgraded with just softeware, no > >hardware upgrade required. > >-- > >Dean Liversidge .__ . , > >Co-Sysop of Dalmation BBS > > Well done Deanny baby, you got it - so why do others have problems with the > concepts? > > Samsboss > The One And Only Flat batteries? What about some slight corruption? Oh, virus writers are gonna **love** it.. :) DMZ --- From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 15:10:47 1996 Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 14:29:25 GMT From: D.M.Zambonini@cs.cf.ac.uk (D M Zambonini) Message-Id: <199611041429.OAA10867@cadog.cs.cf.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The 8 bit SAMSON Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: 3wRxdwmT3SpBKVMRNDtdXw== Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 560 Lines: 22 > >Why is everyone getting so upset if we try to extend this > >trend to the CPU?!! > > > I don't think everyone is upset. But we do have to be realistic. And a SAMSON > that is BASED on anything other than a Z80 will be very difficult to make > compatible with the SAM - and we MUST NOT throw compatibility out the window. > OK, I'm not saying 100% compatible, but as close as we can get in the while > working within a budget. > > >-Andy > > > > > Bob. > Am I missing some esoteric point here? A Z380 **is** compatible with a Z80. Funny, that. DMZ --- From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 15:22:25 1996 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 13:55:13 GMT Subject: Re: SOS: Speccy trhings Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-Id: <92E9E52211@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 400 Lines: 12 > Perhaps it would be better to sell the SAMSon on the basis of SAM > Coupe compatibility :))))) > > Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) > "They call me Mad The Swine" Exactly. I still love my little Speccy chum but if I didn't have a Spectrum and wanted to play old Speccy games, then I would either pick one up for 5 quid at a car boot sale or buy an emulator for my PC... Gavin Smith From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 15:22:25 1996 Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 16:15:26 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9611041515.AA29841@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS - Graphic extras X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 527 Lines: 15 > > > > Surpose we go for an extremly expensive hardware polygon filling graphics card > > using the strategy suggested in the original posting: > > Do you think we'd get a **proper** version of Elite then? Or would we > still be botched around? >From some preliminary calculations I did, 2-3 years ago when I first considered the posibility for a port was that it should be very possible with filled vectored version of Elite on the SAM (with some provisions to how many objects on screen at any time) at 50Hz. -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 15:22:25 1996 Message-Id: <327E6E66.7226@csv.warwick.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 14:29:58 -0800 From: MR P R WALKER Organization: Computing Services X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Hello. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 107 Lines: 5 Lee wrote: > W3's 'I Like crashing even more than Netscape' browser is OK, but Amaya This is possible?! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 15:22:30 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 13:24:44 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: The 8 bit SAMSON Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <945B87213A@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 711 Lines: 22 > > We ARE at a disadvantage because of peoples perceptions. > > > > Well, sticking with 8-bits isn't going to help, is it?! > As for the buzzword parallel processing - the chances are > that what we'd be looking at is co-processing, which is > far less impressive. Well, we simply do what console manafactuers do, and make up our own scale. Remember when they decided that 'meg' meant megabit. So they could say, "Incredible 24meg catridge.", meaning 3mb? Well, how about we call it an 8power bit? or an 800 milibit? Or invent an even stupider scale and call it an 4000 zarkorian. Hmm.. I think my sanity has just vanished in an explosion of green smoke. -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 15:22:41 1996 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 13:52:19 GMT Subject: Re: Re : Killer apps. Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-Id: <92DCF24E95@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1255 Lines: 26 > > As I am now becoming bored of suggesting, I think we should make our killer > > app a web browser & office package (word processor, spreadsheet, etc.) for > > Office package, maybe. I can't really see that you need a web browser for > Sam - quite apart from the fact that I don't think it has the "power" which > you seem to need for web viewing, I would also guess that most Sam users > don't have modems... Why should they have them if there is no internet software available? I really think the new Sam needs some kind of web browser, no matter how simple. > > maintaining a good CLI for serious users, making it an actual home computer > > aswell, then I cannot see how the SAMson could fail with the mass market. > > Easily. It's not intel, it doesn't run MS software, and so most people > won't even look at it. Which means we really do need a GUI. If people see the new Sam has nothing more than a flashing prompt in CLI, it certainly won't sell very many. If it has a nice GUI with some nice internet software at a decent price I really think it has a chance of mass market. Yes, I agree that CLI's are both faster and more intuitive when you get to know them - but we really don't want to scare off beginners do we? Gavin Smith From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 15:23:06 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 15:07:58 GMT+0 Subject: Re: Help! Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <1282E35218A@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 277 Lines: 8 Erm, hello! I've just received three messages with nothing in them at all - not even a header. Anybody else suffer from this or is it just this machine (which has been playing me around all bloody day!) Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "They call me Mad The Swine" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 15:29:23 1996 Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 16:28:36 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9611041528.AA29844@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS - Graphic extras X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2718 Lines: 58 > Ahh but a day or so ago I suggested the advantages of using a few Z80s with > accelerators, that would give a couple of 6-8 times faster Z80s focusing all > of their energy in shifting data and you would not lose these chips then > improving the resolution/number of colours in the screen display a few years > down the road. > > I am still waiting for someone to rubbish my parallel accelerated Z80s based > machine idea. It could work out tricky to design and program but it would be > indefinitely expandable. The Z80 in the old machine could be used to monitor > the new ones and allocate jobs I surpose. > > How many 14MHz (wasn't that the accelerators estimate using the old memory > structure -should be better if we design the memory around the machine) > Z80s does it take to have the same power as a Pentium100 taking into account > the crap memory structure, backwards compatibility and crap drivers it has > to use in the average setup? You would still need 41 (roughly - come one :) Z80's at 14MHZ to shift one MB of screen memory. That's theoretical. And a multiprocessor thingy does not deliver the speed proportional with the number of CPU - it's more logaritmic. > I don't intend to use the Z80s to change the resolution! Yes, A few years down > the road (de javu) We will need new hardware to give a better display than the > new ones we develop for the machine now. When this happens the chances are that > the screen memory will be stored in a different arrangement so the hardware we > may include to scroll the screen now will be out of date, so even if it is > on the main board it will be useless and must be replaced. If we chose to use > Z80s they can be just given different programs to run (we may also need to add > an extra couple every so often to keep up to date). > > I prefer this as it is more flexible, If it can be done it would be better > all around. It is flexible, allright. But what you need is something with more juice :) > > > The graphics 'card' with the machine should be integrated onto the main board > if at all possible (I know thats not the question but I wrote it anyway!) To make it difficult to replace? > sub 200 pounds is still a lot for a nice screen display! > New graphics card for the future SAM should be cheaper as you don't have to > throw away processing power each time. How much do you think 41+++ Z80s with all the multiprocessor logic and SRAM will cost? > Am I a minority thinking that this is a great idea if we can pull it off? Dunno. To me, it sounds a bit far fetched. :) However, if we are talking about _one_ chip (hasn't Acron something up their sleves?)....though, it'll be tougher to program... -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 16:21:19 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 16:21:33 +0000 Subject: Re: Graphics processor/sound board Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <64C047D70AC@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 465 Lines: 9 Lovely spec! I like indeed. One question - how much does it cost in total (there's a lot of stuff there, not just the processor) - and, what's the quality of the sound output (8bit or 16bit - I care!) davee +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ | doubleback : complete bobbins | torus?- 1997? it'll | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 16:44:30 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961104163848.0092d408@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 16:38:48 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Son Of Sam Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 576 Lines: 17 At 02:15 PM 11/4/96 -0800, you wrote: >Status: > >Simon Cooke wrote: > >> I know it's rather bandwagon grabbing, but I think the SAMSON O/S should >> have Java Virtual Machine support as standard. And ActiveX if we can > >Don't you think that these would be a little over the top? I mean, get >things in perspective - you need a powerful computer to be able to run >these efficiently on, for example, the PC. While the SAMson is a good >idea, are you really sure that it's up to this?? If we compile down the JAVA bytecode to assembler, I think it's possible. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 16:44:31 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961104163847.00928e64@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 16:38:47 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SOS - Graphic extras Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1312 Lines: 27 At 11:38 AM 11/4/96 +0000, you wrote: >Ahh but a day or so ago I suggested the advantages of using a few Z80s with >accelerators, that would give a couple of 6-8 times faster Z80s focusing all >of their energy in shifting data and you would not lose these chips then >improving the resolution/number of colours in the screen display a few years >down the road. > >I am still waiting for someone to rubbish my parallel accelerated Z80s based >machine idea. It could work out tricky to design and program but it would be >indefinitely expandable. The Z80 in the old machine could be used to monitor >the new ones and allocate jobs I surpose. Expensive (in terms of glue logic), hard to implement (in terms of power supply, buffering, speed and ease of use), and ultimately undesirable (why do a messy new architecture when one chip could do the same job). >How many 14MHz (wasn't that the accelerators estimate using the old memory >structure -should be better if we design the memory around the machine) >Z80s does it take to have the same power as a Pentium100 taking into account >the crap memory structure, backwards compatibility and crap drivers it has >to use in the average setup? Erm... it's difficult to estimate, as it's still not a finished testbed that you can run a benchmark on... Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 16:58:35 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: Graphics processor/sound board To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 16:52:33 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961104134923.0091d7ec@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Nov 4, 96 01:49:23 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 35 Lines: 5 > Lovely, eh? > Expensive, eh?!! From imc Mon Nov 4 17:12:59 1996 Subject: Re: New files To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 17:12:59 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <9610290719.AA01400@asmal.edh-net> from "Frode Tenneboe" at Oct 29, 96 08:19:14 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 406 Lines: 10 On Tue, 29 Oct 1996 08:19:14 +0100, Frode Tenneboe said: > Err..sorry, but I have been extremely busy. :/ But why did you > choose another format? Are you the only one to use it - I guess > so so far, but..? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I believe this isn't a "file format" as such - just raw code which you run in a particular way (i.e. by saving it as the first thing on the disk and booting it). imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 17:18:25 1996 From: sh5655@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk (SL Harding) Message-Id: <199611041709.RAA04010@arctic.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS - 41 Z80s all in a row! To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 17:09:48 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <9611041528.AA29844@asmal.edh-net> from "Frode Tenneboe" at Nov 4, 96 04:28:36 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2022 Lines: 48 > > > Ahh but a day or so ago I suggested the advantages of using a few Z80s with > > accelerators, that would give a couple of 6-8 times faster Z80s focusing all > > of their energy in shifting data and you would not lose these chips then > > improving the resolution/number of colours in the screen display a few years > > down the road. > > > > I am still waiting for someone to rubbish my parallel accelerated Z80s based > > machine idea. It could work out tricky to design and program but it would be > > indefinitely expandable. The Z80 in the old machine could be used to monitor > > the new ones and allocate jobs I surpose. > > > > How many 14MHz (wasn't that the accelerators estimate using the old memory > > structure -should be better if we design the memory around the machine) > > Z80s does it take to have the same power as a Pentium100 taking into account > > the crap memory structure, backwards compatibility and crap drivers it has > > to use in the average setup? > > You would still need 41 (roughly - come one :) Z80's at 14MHZ to shift one > MB of screen memory. That's theoretical. And a multiprocessor thingy > does not deliver the speed proportional with the number of CPU - it's more > logaritmic. > Point taken, I over estimated the power of the Z80 (by a tab!) -I'd love such a machine, but I guess I am just excentric. > > > > > > The graphics 'card' with the machine should be integrated onto the main board > > if at all possible (I know thats not the question but I wrote it anyway!) > > To make it difficult to replace? > No, to save on costs for a production machine. I was thinking that it could be bypasses when the time for a new device came. > > sub 200 pounds is still a lot for a nice screen display! > > New graphics card for the future SAM should be cheaper as you don't have to > > throw away processing power each time. > > How much do you think 41+++ Z80s with all the multiprocessor logic and > SRAM will cost? Toooooooo much! Numb. From imc Mon Nov 4 17:26:19 1996 Subject: Re: SimCoupe & Disks. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 17:26:19 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Si Owen" at Oct 30, 96 07:04:28 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 248 Lines: 8 On Wed, 30 Oct 1996 07:04:28 +0000 (GMT), Si Owen said: > Have you tried 'fdformat' under either Linux or DOS? I've not come acr= > oss > any that won't format them yet... Well fdformat on the sun only does 9 sectors (hence "samformat")... imc From imc Mon Nov 4 17:27:12 1996 Subject: Re: Son Of Sam To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 17:27:12 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Andrew M Gale" at Oct 30, 96 08:56:23 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 431 Lines: 10 On Wed, 30 Oct 1996 08:56:23 +0000 (GMT), Andrew M Gale said: > Can I suggest that an important part of the SAMson design > should be standardising some of the software - for example > the SAM should have a very definite text file format. Also, > how about a standard (public domain?) text editor which all > programs requiring an editor can use - assemblers, etc. Yeah... like Unix has a standard text editor (namely, vi)! imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 17:28:06 1996 From: sh5655@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk (SL Harding) Message-Id: <199611041721.RAA04031@arctic.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Help! To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 17:21:53 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1282E35218A@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> from "Johnna Teare" at Nov 4, 96 03:07:58 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 502 Lines: 18 > > Erm, hello! > > I've just received three messages with nothing in them at all - not > even a header. Anybody else suffer from this or is it just this > machine (which has been playing me around all bloody day!) > > Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) > "They call me Mad The Swine" > I seem to lose the odd few lines from the bottom of mails, and I have only had one bodyless mail in the past few days. I have not had the headerless ones. Any advances on 3 blank mails? Numb. From imc Mon Nov 4 17:32:38 1996 Subject: Re: SAMSON ideas To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 17:32:38 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199610301004.LAA28704@dxmint.cern.ch> from "Allan Skillman" at Oct 30, 96 11:04:23 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 1187 Lines: 23 On Wed, 30 Oct 96 11:04:23 MET, Allan Skillman said: > Second Software. I think the BASIC interpreter needs to be separated from > the UI, ie the possible GUI system can run BASIC shells, rather than the > BASIC shell (command line and editor) runs the GUI. Something along the > lines of RiscOS. Also Can we drop the line numbers. SAM Basic doesn't really > need them now, as even gotos can use labels. I would like to be able to > write the program in one window and run it from a shell prompt (or by > clicking on the file of course) Basics exist without line numbers, but they aren't really basics any more! You might as well go to Rexx. :-) Rexx wouldn't be all that foreign to Sam Basic programmers and it has built-in support for executing CLI commands - not only of the main system but also of any utility that accepts them (you can write a program to tell your editor to move the cursor to the next 'x' and change it to a 'y', if you really wanted). Shells are an OK idea (get rid of the quotes on all the filenames you have to load and copy) but you'd need to have some way to type in a line of Basic (or Rexx :-) ) for those little tasks such as printing 123*53-91. imc From imc Mon Nov 4 17:34:53 1996 Subject: Re: Hello. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 17:34:53 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <96103013000031@morse.ntu.ac.uk> from "CC604050@ntu.ac.uk \(\)>" at Oct 30, 96 01:00:01 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 372 Lines: 16 On Wed, 30 Oct 1996 13:00:01 +0100, CC604050@ntu.ac.uk \(\)> said: > to imc: > This machine is on a network and the time is > a) not my problem > and > b) irrelevant. Nope, not irrelevant. Elm uses it to order my mail, so if yours is wrong it appears out of order. You might think that's trivial and you are entitled to your opinion, but it's not irrelevant. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 17:40:20 1996 From: sh5655@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk (SL Harding) Message-Id: <199611041715.RAA04023@arctic.bris.ac.uk> Subject: SOS flash memory switch To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 17:14:58 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611041430.OAA10871@cadog.cs.cf.ac.uk> from "D M Zambonini" at Nov 4, 96 02:30:49 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1172 Lines: 31 > > > > >> Aaaarrrgggghhh! I've had it! The problem with holding things in ROM > > >> is that they get outdated too quickly... just look at all the > > >> additions to SAM BASIC. Leave the BIOS to the ROMs, and load > > >> EVERYTHING else... BASIC, assemblers, whatever, into RAM. > > > > > >Well, thats the whole idea of having battery backed SRAM / EEPROM to > > >store programs / utilities that are loaded/accessed by the Boot-up > > >ROM / BIOS and can be overwritten / upgraded with just softeware, no > > >hardware upgrade required. > > >-- > > >Dean Liversidge .__ . , > > >Co-Sysop of Dalmation BBS > > > > Well done Deanny baby, you got it - so why do others have problems with the > > concepts? > Flat batteries? What about some slight corruption? > Oh, virus writers are gonna **love** it.. :) We could get around the virus problem by inplementing a physical switch somewhere under the bonnet. It must be switched to a 'write' position before the flash can be written to -How often are you going to want the operating system changed without you knowledge? Numb. > DMZ > --- > From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 17:44:26 1996 From: sh5655@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk (SL Harding) Message-Id: <199611041735.RAA04044@arctic.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: The doesn't-have-to-be-8-bit SAMSON To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 17:35:56 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961104132815.0092dc64@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Nov 4, 96 01:28:15 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1572 Lines: 38 > > At 10:38 AM 11/4/96 +0000, you wrote: > >> And why did RAM get cheaper? Because sales increased, and that was because > >> everybody needed more of it. Are you seriously suggesting that anything > >> useful could have been done with a 48K Sam? The screen would take up half > >> of all available memory! Why are Sam programs nearly all 512K only now? It > >> isn't because we lazy programmers are letting our code get bigger simply > >> because we can; the code is bigger because it simply cannot be made > >> smaller (or at least not without compromising on features) > >> > >I think it IS because we are becoming lazy programmers. > > BZZZZZZZT! Wrong answer ;) > > On the SAM as it stands, things are taking up more and more memory because > it's the only way to code them within strict speed constraints. Also, as > things get more complex, they take more memory. > It is just a case of priorites. On the SAM the top priority is always speed so we sacrafice huge amounts of memory to compensate -quite rightly so. With the new machine speed may not be percieved as so important as we will get a great and fast machine. Memory will not be percieved as so important as we could well go for 4 meg on-board and a CD drive. I am just afraid that I (we) may go the way of the PC programmer, who cares more about silly things such as neat code! I think that just about all 512K only games could be done in 256K if we realy wanted. Multiloads are not that bad when you have a fast(ish) disk drive like we do. -that was my only point. Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 17:48:25 1996 From: sh5655@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk (SL Harding) Message-Id: <199611041742.RAA04092@arctic.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS - Graphic extras To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 17:42:17 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961104123512.0091b3a8@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Nov 4, 96 12:35:12 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 203 Lines: 10 > Working on a possible hardware solution for the graphics thing... > cheap(relatively) and highly powerful... but not that hot on colour. > I don't think it is THAT bad on colour ;o) > > Simon > From imc Mon Nov 4 19:13:52 1996 Subject: Re: A SICk powersupply, methinks... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 19:13:52 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199610301815.SAA19030@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> from "Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com" at Oct 30, 96 06:15:14 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 411 Lines: 9 On Wed, 30 Oct 1996 18:15:14 GMT, Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com said: > BTW. Everyone enjoy the Gloucester Show. Sorry I did not get there until > just after 1pm, the traffic past Brum was F*&?$^g awful. Nice to chat with > Colin (where was Colin.A?) and Bob, and of course the lovely Christina (now > I've made Colin.A. sit up and take notice) he,he,he... OK, so someone must know who samsboss is by now... imc From imc Mon Nov 4 19:18:29 1996 Subject: Re: SOS colour To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 19:18:29 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <96103109252325@morse.ntu.ac.uk> from "CC604050@ntu.ac.uk \(\)>" at Oct 31, 96 09:25:25 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 315 Lines: 8 On Thu, 31 Oct 1996 09:25:25 +0100, CC604050@ntu.ac.uk \(\)> said: > Black? BLACK!? It's a bit neanderthal, isn't it? Look in computer mags from > 15 years ago, you'll see black computers. Look in catalogues today - you'll > see cream computers. I've seen many modern IBM ThinkPads and they are all black... imc From imc Mon Nov 4 19:21:30 1996 Subject: Re: Samson CPU(s) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 19:21:30 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <961031115249_1612646352@emout13.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Oct 31, 96 11:52:51 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 173 Lines: 7 On Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:52:51 -0500, BrenchleyR@aol.com said: > Most SAMs have memory which works at between 60 and 100 us. Most PC's are > only 80us. Or even 80ns... imc From imc Mon Nov 4 19:24:56 1996 Subject: Re: CLI or GUI : a thesis (!) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 19:24:56 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961031172946.00917fa4@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Oct 31, 96 05:29:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 750 Lines: 16 On Thu, 31 Oct 1996 17:29:46 +0000, Simon Cooke said: > Ah, but the problem is that it's not possible to have a software solution to > the floppy controller problem -- the DOS is easy to rewrite to use a new > controller. Getting exsiting software with Copy Protection et al, however, > is not. It might be easier to go with software emulation for this. I don't suppose it should be that hard to write a Z80 emulator on a Z380, right? :-) That might slow it down to more or less the correct speed too... Or perhaps I/O on the disk port could be made to generate interrupts which the Z380 services by emulating the I/O operations. That's how VM/CMS works. You could use the same idea to replace the keyboard with a PC-type one eventually. imc From imc Mon Nov 4 19:28:45 1996 Subject: Re: Samson CPUs To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 19:28:45 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611011644.QAA05864@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk> from "SL Harding" at Nov 1, 96 04:44:20 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 697 Lines: 19 On Fri, 1 Nov 1996 16:44:20 +0000 (GMT), SL Harding said: > We could make the first commercialy availible true parrallel processing > computer! Sorry to disappoint you, but somewhere in this department we have a box of transputers. Also, our main computing service machines (sable and ermine) have three and four CPUs respectively. > The use of many processors would make a very nice multitasking GUI! What would happen then if you installed 4 CPUs and started 6 tasks? > There are many different trains of thought in the field of parrallel > processing Yes, enough to fund hundreds of research departments... hardly something that you would want to inflict on your average sam user. imc From imc Mon Nov 4 19:35:06 1996 Subject: Re: The 8 bit SAMSON To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 19:35:06 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611031807.SAA10904@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk> from "SL Harding" at Nov 3, 96 06:07:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 1122 Lines: 24 On Sun, 3 Nov 1996 18:07:41 +0000 (GMT), SL Harding said: > I have to agree with the first comment, 32bit wide data is both waistfull > of time -reading stuff that is not requred and waistfull of memory. > 8 bits are more than enough, we just need to read thoes 8 bits 4 times as > fast! Well it's been said before, but you are well wrong about that. A 32 bit machine does read memory 4 times as fast! The fact that you have fetched 32 bits when you wanted 8 isn't a waste of time because they were fetched all at once. It isn't wasteful of memory unless you installed 16 meg when you only wanted 4! But it does help you quite a lot when you discover that every instruction can be fetched in one read cycle. Also, the 8-bit processor is _very_ slow at accessing memory when it comes to breaking the 64K barrier. You have to page it in first - what a waste of time that is! Incidentally, are we going to have an MMU on this Z380? It could prove very useful for implementing Unix (and it doesn't have to be unix - any multitasking system benefits from full memory protection and address space independence). imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 20:15:12 1996 Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 15:12:39 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961104151238_1416738792@emout02.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Tv or not TV Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1251 Lines: 37 In a message dated 04/11/96 10:51:18, you write: [cut] Re Z80/Z380 compatability. There are nice extras, as Simon has pointed out, but also as Simon pointed out - htere are drawbacks. Not every Z80 instruction is implimented, not all take the same time to process (relative to each other that is). Re Z380's large memory model. It would prove difficult to mimic the SAM memory paging with the Z380. However, until now, I had considered using the Z80B as the heart of SAMSON and putting extra processor power onto the extended board. But it would be possible to consider a SAMSON that had ANY processor as its main CPU buth then has a SAM-ON-A-CARD plugged in to give 100% compatability. At first, when building the system, you would attach the new processor to the back of the existing SAM, which would enable software development. And for that reason it just may be simpler to stick to the Z80B being the processor that kicks off on power-up. But a Z80B there must be as far as I can see. Re TV or No TV, that is the question. I agree 256 colours could be achieved on a TV, especially with SCART but to go beyond that I think a proper monitor would be a must. Question:- How many mailing list people still use a TV? > > >Andrew > > > Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 20:15:20 1996 Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 15:12:33 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961104151233_1215076908@emout20.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAMSON Keyboard. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 598 Lines: 18 In a message dated 04/11/96 10:48:48, you write: >PC layout is OK (just make sure the Control key is next to the A, not >the Caps lock key! And put Edit out of the way so you don't press it >accidentally instead of shift...). > >The Sam keyboard has a lot of mistakes, for example the locations of "=" and >"+". > >imc But the Caps-Lock is always next to the A key. A good PC keyboard would have equal sized shift keys and a large Backspace key. It will need very little tayloring for SAMSON if we adopt the ALT + Keypad keys to cope with the special characters like the copyright symbol. Bob From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 20:15:22 1996 Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 15:12:39 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961104151239_1449837484@emout03.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Changes to syntax Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 350 Lines: 14 In a message dated 04/11/96 11:06:13, you write: >In that case, how many old Sam manuals are left? > -how much can we change the Sam Basic dos syntax?!!! > >*smirk* Numb. > > I would say about 2,000. And change syntax as much as you like - using the SRAM system the original ROM/DOS can be loaded anytime you want 100% compatability. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 20:15:23 1996 Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 15:12:43 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961104151241_1583424300@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS - CLI IS basic! Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 374 Lines: 15 In a message dated 04/11/96 11:22:57, you write: >> I did start writing a list of amendments to SAM Basic/DOS a long time ago. >> I would welcome any ideas. > >If you/we can base it on 4DOS (for MS-DOS, OS/2, etc) then that would be >a hell of a good start... > > > We do want to have a good DOS for SAMSON you know. MS-DOS indeed, what will someone think of next? Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 20:15:23 1996 Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 15:12:46 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961104151245_1880803116@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Graphics processor/sound board Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1182 Lines: 39 In a message dated 04/11/96 14:59:16, you write: > >Hi everyone, > >Just waiting for people to get back to me with a cost-per-chip, but how's >this for a specification: > >Graphics and sound processor board: > >Featuring 33Mhz RISC processor (we can use this for drawing, sorting, other >routines etc), fully programmable. >Resolution of up to 1024x768 in 16.7 million colours > >LCD display compatible >Genlocking. >Palette has MiDGET-style colour control in its 16.7 million colour mode (ie >you can use it to colour shift, do fades, etc with a minimum of processing). > >Hardware 32x? cursor, 4 colour (one is transparent), colours are any from >the 16.7M colour palette. (32x? because it's 32 pixels wide, but as deep as >you like). > >8 stereo DAC outputs, at up to 44.1kHZ. > >With the processor power available, and 4Mb of memory on board (hey, why >not? it's cheap enough these days! :) ), we could use this as a SAM graphics >board, with SAA1099 emulation (and high-power sound output as well), and a >graphics processor built in. > >Lovely eh? > >Simon > > Can I place my order now, and do you take credit cards? Come on, more details, or we will send in the boys.... From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 20:15:23 1996 Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 15:12:49 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961104151246_1914357548@emout11.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Banned words! Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 354 Lines: 14 In a message dated 04/11/96 15:04:38, you write: >> As for all these pleas for more good software - if it was possible >> to do ClarisWorks on the Sam, >> ~~~~~~ > >Please dont use that word or I might get violent. > >Nev (getting divorced from.... - thats right Claris) > > > Lets face it Nev, Claris and Work just do not go together. [grin] From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 20:15:24 1996 Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 15:12:42 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961104151242_1680294316@emout07.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Will ISA work? Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 346 Lines: 12 In a message dated 04/11/96 12:27:52, you write: >You get state of the art graphics card for the PC at sub 200 punds. That's >why I propose the SAM-on-ISA idea. > > -Frode It would have to be an intelegent interface wouldn't it Frode? I mean the ISA bus has signels going both ways I think. But I would love to hear more on the subject. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 20:15:27 1996 Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 15:12:41 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961104151240_1516315436@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Samson CPU(s) Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 848 Lines: 21 In a message dated 04/11/96 11:20:18, you write: >> Win95 is very difficult to call a GUI because of the extensive use of the >> Menu Bar. > >How so? It's graphic, it's an interface between the user and the internal >gubbins, therefore it's a Graphical User Interface. Its not Graphic, it pulls up a list on menus to which you have to aline your pointer to get the next list of menus to which you have to move carefully or you will find your list gone and another in its place and when you get to each menu you have to stop and read each item because the little graphics they give are far to small (even in their large setting) and so it goes, on and on and on. It gives me a headache every time I'm forced to use '95. > >For what it's worth, I'd rather have a command line anyday anyway. Much >faster. > Totally, 200% in agreement there. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 20:15:27 1996 Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 15:12:44 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961104151243_1747403308@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Anti MS Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 270 Lines: 12 In a message dated 04/11/96 12:28:13, you write: >Easily. It's not intel, it doesn't run MS software, and so most people >won't even look at it. > > > If it's not intel and if it doesn't run MS software then there are a large number of people who will love it. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 20:28:10 1996 Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 15:22:36 -0500 From: Neville Young <106166.1560@compuserve.com> Subject: Samson Graphic extras To: sam users Message-Id: <199611041526_MC1-BA5-95F2@compuserve.com> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 639 Lines: 21 Re a graphics processor. Actually you only need a very limited number of commands as long as one of them is LEARN. I did somthing on those line about 15 years ago where the only built in commands were LEARN and PLOT. Got that doing polygons and stuff. Also if you are bothered about fast scrolling then there is a way to scroll any number of pixels in any direction in just a few microseconds. Instead of moving all the data in memory just change the start address of the screen. This could probably be done by frigging the address lines between the ASIC and the video memory. (assuming the ASIC will still be doing the video) Nev. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 20:28:32 1996 Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 15:22:32 -0500 From: Neville Young <106166.1560@compuserve.com> Subject: who's that girl? To: sam users Message-Id: <199611041526_MC1-BA5-95F1@compuserve.com> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 440 Lines: 14 > On Wed, 30 Oct 1996 18:15:14 GMT, Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com said: > > BTW. Everyone enjoy the Gloucester Show. Sorry I did not get there until > > just after 1pm, the traffic past Brum was F*&?$^g awful. Nice to chat with > > Colin (where was Colin.A?) and Bob, and of course the lovely Christina (now > > I've made Colin.A. sit up and take notice) he,he,he... >OK, so someone must know who samsboss is by now... >imc Yep! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 20:29:13 1996 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Dean Liversidge Organization: The Mad House To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 20:16:41 +0000 Subject: Re: Son Of Sam [ROM] Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.32a) Message-Id: <847138814.528655.0@error.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1071 Lines: 23 Andrew M Gale wrote : > > I don't think that any programs should be able to alter the SRAM > > from within, there should be a set utility to upgrade the SRAM > > with a new program / utility. Otherwise everyones programs may not > > run consistantly. Major incompatabilities. > > > > What I was thinking was that one 32K chunk of the SRAM could > be used by the currently running application - this would help > with the SAM's awkward RAM paging. Also, the code in SRAM would run > faster. -A Hmmm, yeah ok, that would be good, jsut as long as it left the othere Roms/Rams alone. Never thought of the speed, but i'm not sure it would be any faster, just a lot easier to make the hardware, no refresh lines to cope with. -- Dean Liversidge .__ . , Co-Sysop of Dalmation BBS | \ _.|._ _ _.-+-* _ ._ The First SAM Bulletin Board |__/(_]|[ | )(_] | |(_)[ ) Saturday 12:00pm till midnight. >>>>>>> +44 1744 614150 >>>>>> Sysop: Dave Whitmore From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 20:34:39 1996 Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 20:29:30 GMT Message-Id: <199611042029.UAA28431@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Son Of Sam From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 758 Lines: 21 On Nov 03, 1996 12:55:10, 'Dean Liversidge ' wrote: >> If you're going to go for PC cases, choose nice ones. So many >> PCs are incredibly ugly and horrid. Be careful here - and choose the >> same one for all of them. > >The beauty of PC cases is that there are hundreds to choose from, so >the choice is entirely your own, the internals are basically the same >so you find one you like and put your inside's inside. >-- >Dean Liversidge ._ -- Yes, but the point is WCC will have to choose one case and make sure they get supplies for all the SAMSONs. Every PC that I come across seems to have a different case - we can't have that with SAMSON now can we? Samsboss The One And Only From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 20:37:28 1996 Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 20:32:24 GMT Message-Id: <199611042032.UAA28642@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Son Of Sam [ROM] From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1050 Lines: 31 On Nov 04, 1996 20:16:41, 'Dean Liversidge ' wrote: >Andrew M Gale wrote : > >> > I don't think that any programs should be able to alter the SRAM >> > from within, there should be a set utility to upgrade the SRAM >> > with a new program / utility. Otherwise everyones programs may not >> > run consistantly. Major incompatabilities. >> > >> >> What I was thinking was that one 32K chunk of the SRAM could >> be used by the currently running application - this would help >> with the SAM's awkward RAM paging. Also, the code in SRAM would run >> faster. -A > >Hmmm, yeah ok, that would be good, jsut as long as it left the othere >Roms/Rams alone. Never thought of the speed, but i'm not sure it >would be any faster, just a lot easier to make the hardware, no >refresh lines to cope with. >-- >Dean Liversidge how about two blocks of SRAM, one for the system, with a hard switch as someone sugested, then another with a software switch, for programs to use. -- Samsboss The One And Only From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 20:40:43 1996 Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 20:35:11 GMT Message-Id: <199611042035.UAA28818@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: A SICk powersupply, methinks... From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 601 Lines: 20 On Nov 04, 1996 19:13:52, 'Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk' wrote: >On Wed, 30 Oct 1996 18:15:14 GMT, Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com said: >> BTW. Everyone enjoy the Gloucester Show. Sorry I did not get there until >> just after 1pm, the traffic past Brum was F*&?$^g awful. Nice to chat with >> Colin (where was Colin.A?) and Bob, and of course the lovely Christina (now >> I've made Colin.A. sit up and take notice) he,he,he... > >OK, so someone must know who samsboss is by now... > >imc -- Well I was not going to go round with a badge on was I? :-) Samsboss I was there - so I know. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 20:41:09 1996 Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 20:36:11 GMT Message-Id: <199611042036.UAA28883@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The doesn't-have-to-be-8-bit SAMSON From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 382 Lines: 17 On Nov 04, 1996 17:35:56, 'sh5655@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk (SL Harding)' wrote: >I think that just about all 512K only games could be done in 256K if we realy >wanted. Multiloads are not that bad when you have a fast(ish) disk drive like >we do. > -that was my only point. > > Numb. -- All except Lemmings. And that really need 1Mb. Samsboss The One And Only From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 20:42:29 1996 Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 20:37:55 GMT Message-Id: <199611042037.UAA28948@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Hello. From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 583 Lines: 27 On Nov 04, 1996 17:34:54, 'Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk' wrote: >On Wed, 30 Oct 1996 13:00:01 +0100, CC604050@ntu.ac.uk \(\)> said: >> to imc: > >> This machine is on a network and the time is > >> a) not my problem > >> and > >> b) irrelevant. > >Nope, not irrelevant. Elm uses it to order my mail, so if yours is wrong it >appears out of order. You might think that's trivial and you are entitled >to your opinion, but it's not irrelevant. > >imc -- The internet should adopt 'universal time' like any scientific organisation. Samsboss The One And Only From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 20:43:43 1996 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Dean Liversidge Organization: The Mad House To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 20:16:41 +0000 Subject: Re: Hello. Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.32a) Message-Id: <847138814.528652.0@error.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 595 Lines: 17 > > > What colour do you want it to be? > > Erm, Orange..... > > Orange? ORANGE? Hmmm..... **orange** > > What **sort** of orange? :) A nice bright orange, like the Tango orange...... or maybe Black with orange keys....... Mmmmmmmm yummy. :-) -- Dean Liversidge .__ . , Co-Sysop of Dalmation BBS | \ _.|._ _ _.-+-* _ ._ The First SAM Bulletin Board |__/(_]|[ | )(_] | |(_)[ ) Saturday 12:00pm till midnight. >>>>>>> +44 1744 614150 >>>>>> Sysop: Dave Whitmore From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 20:48:08 1996 Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 20:43:33 GMT Message-Id: <199611042043.UAA29252@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Hello. From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 470 Lines: 23 On Nov 04, 1996 20:16:41, 'Dean Liversidge ' wrote: >> > > What colour do you want it to be? >> > Erm, Orange..... > >> >> Orange? ORANGE? Hmmm..... **orange** >> >> What **sort** of orange? :) > >A nice bright orange, like the Tango orange...... >or maybe Black with orange keys....... Mmmmmmmm yummy. >:-) >-- >Dean Liversidge -- Am dis here man taking de piss? Now if it were green.... Samsboss The One And Only From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 20:51:47 1996 Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 20:46:33 GMT Message-Id: <199611042046.UAA29377@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Samson Graphic extras From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam users X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1024 Lines: 37 On Nov 04, 1996 15:22:36, 'Neville Young <106166.1560@compuserve.com>' wrote: >Re a graphics processor. > >Actually you only need a very limited number of commands as long as one of >them is LEARN. > >I did somthing on those line about 15 years ago where the only built in >commands were LEARN and PLOT. > >Got that doing polygons and stuff. > >Also if you are bothered about fast scrolling then there is a way to scroll >any number of pixels in any direction in just a few microseconds. > >Instead of moving all the data in memory just change the start address of >the screen. But does that work in ALL directions? Vertical scroll, yes. But how would it with horizontal? > >This could probably be done by frigging the address lines between the ASIC >and the video memory. >(assuming the ASIC will still be doing the video) > >Nev. -- My hero. Welcome back to de mailinks listy Nev, sorry I didn't get to speak to you at Gloucester, spent to long with Mr Nutting. Samsboss The One And Only From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 20:53:17 1996 Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 20:48:54 GMT Message-Id: <199611042048.UAA29487@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Anti MS From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 472 Lines: 22 On Nov 04, 1996 15:12:44, 'BrenchleyR@aol.com' wrote: >In a message dated 04/11/96 12:28:13, you write: > >>Easily. It's not intel, it doesn't run MS software, and so most people >>won't even look at it. >> >> >> > >If it's not intel and if it doesn't run MS software then there are a large >number of people who will love it. > >Bob. Now that it the most true thing I've seen on these pages in weeks. -- Samsboss Founder of the "I Hate PCs Club" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 20:55:32 1996 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 20:54:32 GMT Subject: Re: Tv or not TV Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-Id: <99E6FA2BCB@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 291 Lines: 14 > Question:- How many mailing list people still use a TV? > > > > > >Andrew > > > > > > > Bob. Me! Though I have a PC monitor (Packard Bell SVGA) but don't know how to connect the SAM to it. I hope any future Sam will have the ability to connect easily to any standard PC monitor... > From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 21:15:17 1996 Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 13:12:43 +0100 Message-Id: <96110413122681@morse.ntu.ac.uk> From: CC604050@ntu.ac.uk (ALLAN CLARKSON) To: SAM-USERS@nvg.unit.no Subject: Quiet... X-Vms-To: SAM-USERS@NVG.UNIT.NO Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 228 Lines: 8 Is this just the weekend lull, has no-one emailed since Sat am, or is there something wrong with my email account? Can someone email me personally (cc604050@ntu.ac.uk) and let me know when the last newsgroup message was? Al. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 21:20:33 1996 Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 21:18:26 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@puce.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Tv or not TV In-Reply-To: <961104151238_1416738792@emout02.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 5070 Lines: 101 On Mon, 4 Nov 1996 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 04/11/96 10:51:18, you write: > > [cut] > Re Z80/Z380 compatability. > There are nice extras, as Simon has pointed out, but also as Simon pointed > out - htere are drawbacks. Not every Z80 instruction is implimented, not all > take the same time to process (relative to each other that is). The only incompatible instructions are the sort of things we Z80B programmers shouldn't be using anyway... Let me explain this: the Z80 has a set of undocumanted instructions which Zilog never noticed. Half of them are useful, they let you manipulate the lower or upper halves of the IX and IY registers. These instructions ARE compatible with the Z380. All the other undocumented codes are repetitions of existing instructions, or slower than usual instructions. These have been replaced with the 16bit functions, but I don't know anybody who still uses those; ever since the idea of a Z380 based accellerator was first proposed, we've been warned not to use those instructions - to ensure forward compatability. The time instructions take to process is irrelavent - because a) They already don't all take the same time on a Z80B b) The only routines which rely heavily on these sorts of timings are border scrollies in demos. They wouldn't work at any increased speed, and would probably be fairly machine-specific in any case. And you don't want to run demos, do you? > Re Z380's large memory model. > It would prove difficult to mimic the SAM memory paging with the Z380. > However, until now, I had considered using the Z80B as the heart of SAMSON > and putting extra processor power onto the extended board. But it would be > possible to consider a SAMSON that had ANY processor as its main CPU buth > then has a SAM-ON-A-CARD plugged in to give 100% compatability. This is almost exactly what has been suggestted. I would always say Z380 was the best as a main processor, because anybody who can program the Sam now will be able to use the new one, because the architecture is similar. However, if we are keeping the old Z80B, we don't NEED to continue paging the memory for the Z380, since old programs can still run on all the old hardware (I've already said that). The new processor could be designed to use only it's own programs, which would be written to take advantage of the extra speed, memory etc etc. > At first, when building the system, you would attach the new processor to the > back of the existing SAM, which would enable software development. And for > that reason it just may be simpler to stick to the Z80B being the processor > that kicks off on power-up. > > But a Z80B there must be as far as I can see. This is pretty much the way Simon's accelerator worked, as brought to Gloucester a year ago. Of course there will be a Z80B, all these modifications plug into the back and do not require any internal modifications. In fact, nobody has suggestted otherwise (Or at least, I didn't.) But, as far as any programmer could ever be concerned, the advantages of using a Z380 (as your main processor in new programs) as opposed to a Z80H, or some totally different CPU, far outweigh any disadvantages which you might find. > Re TV or No TV, that is the question. > > I agree 256 colours could be achieved on a TV, especially with SCART but to > go beyond that I think a proper monitor would be a must. Come on, how many colours you you think we get in actual TV broadcasts? I don't accept that more than that would be possible. Anyway, if you had actually read the message you're replying to, you'll see that the whole point of what I was saying was that 256 colours was the upper limit. Please read my mails if you intend to respond - it may take a while, but you don't have to be on-line the whole time do you? It also takes a lot longer to write the messages. :-) > Question:- How many mailing list people still use a TV? I do. Anyway, in terms of our new market, people will probably think: If you get forced to buy an expensive SVGA monitor, you may as well be buying a PC. IMHO If we want to be selling an easy-to-use, family computer, then not needing a dedicated monitor would probably become one of the bigger selling points. The reason I suggestted this upper limit on resolution and colour was to keep things in perspective: we've still got to be able to USE these graphics, however good they turn out to be. Nothing will actually NEED a higher resolution than I said, and there's no point having a display with uses several megabytes of video ram, if that means all our software runs no faster than a snail's pace. I think we should concentrate on processor for the moment, because that it the one, singular problem which the programmer cannot work his way round. One other point - I may have missed something here, but I gather you were saying we need to use the ASIC in the new boards so that we use enough for VLSI to help design the next one. If the boards don't use the ASIC, then why do we need a next one? Just thought I'd ask... Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 21:22:34 1996 Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 21:20:46 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@puce.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam users Subject: Re: Samson Graphic extras In-Reply-To: <199611042046.UAA29377@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 337 Lines: 14 On Mon, 4 Nov 1996, Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com wrote: > >Instead of moving all the data in memory just change the start address of > >the screen. > > But does that work in ALL directions? Vertical scroll, yes. But how would > it with horizontal? Of course! You change the display offset by one byte rather than 128 bytes. Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 23:49:22 1996 Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 19:34:54 +0100 Message-Id: <96110219345464@morse.ntu.ac.uk> From: CC604050@ntu.ac.uk (ALLAN CLARKSON) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Re : Killer apps. X-Vms-To: SMTP%"sam-users@nvg.unit.no" Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 355 Lines: 10 No, Bob, there's 2 types of PCW. There's the original PCW, which you refer to, and the new (just out) PcW16, which is all GUI-based, all-in-one unit. However, it's practically useless to anyone who wants to do any programming, etc. - it's aimed at someone who just wants to do a bit of wordprocessing, some accounting, a bit of diarising (!), etc. Al. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 00:24:06 1996 Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 19:37:54 +0100 Message-Id: <96110219375391@morse.ntu.ac.uk> From: CC604050@ntu.ac.uk (ALLAN CLARKSON) To: SAM-USERS@nvg.unit.no Subject: NSSS 2 X-Vms-To: SAM-USERS@NVG.UNIT.NO Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 330 Lines: 17 The Second Northern SAM and Spectrum Computer Show * The Second Northern SAM and Spectrum Computer Show * will be held on the 22nd of February 1997, from 10:30 am 'till 4:30pm, at the Methodist Hall, Bank Street, Wetherby, West Yorkshire (same venue as previous show) * More details to be posted soon* NSSS2 From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 00:49:16 1996 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Dean Liversidge Organization: The Mad House To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 00:04:01 +0000 Subject: Re: Proposal: Workpackage Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.32a) Message-Id: <847152313.57919.0@error.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1595 Lines: 31 > >What the hell are you on about, you dont have to READ anything > >different to any other GUI, with win95, its is exactly as you > >discribe a GUI, but it is also so much more, if you want it to be. > > > Win95 is not a GUI. It is a Menu/Pointer system that just happens to > have a partial GUI bolted on the front. Win 3.1 was nearer a GUI > dispite its faults. And I'm not talking about the internal workings > of programs, just the war the desktop is handled. Give me program > manager anyday. You've got the win3.1x Program manager in Win95 -- Its called the DESKTOP !!!, it does exactly the same job but better and more besides. The menus and bars are all extras if required. But anyway, this is a Sam topic, and the if a GUI was created for the SAM, then it should be totally user-configurable, with the options of whichever sytem you chose, thus suiting any/everybody. > Win95 is very difficult to call a GUI because of the extensive use of the > Menu Bar. The thing is the Menu Bar is in addition to the icons, just to make your life quicker and more productive, which is what the whole world seems to revolve around nowadays, getting more work out of already overworked staff...... :-( shuch is life, technology and evolution ! -- Dean Liversidge .__ . , Co-Sysop of Dalmation BBS | \ _.|._ _ _.-+-* _ ._ The First SAM Bulletin Board |__/(_]|[ | )(_] | |(_)[ ) Saturday 12:00pm till midnight. >>>>>>> +44 1744 614150 >>>>>> Sysop: Dave Whitmore From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 01:40:24 1996 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Dean Liversidge Organization: The Mad House To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 00:04:01 +0000 Subject: Re: CLI or GUI : a thesis (!) Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.32a) Message-Id: <847152312.57918.0@error.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 933 Lines: 18 > On Mon, 4 Nov 1996 01:01:22 +0000, Dean Liversidge said: > > nor do i think it could cope with the > > amount of graphics, especialy animation, used in the majority on > > high quality web pages > > Um, actually a "high quality" web page does _not_ have excessive > amounts of graphics and uses animation scarcely if at all... Sorry, maybe i should have said 'High Profile' really, but whichever, it seems to be the way that most web pages are going, with each new release of a web browser there is more integration with everything else, Java, etc.... -- Dean Liversidge .__ . , Co-Sysop of Dalmation BBS | \ _.|._ _ _.-+-* _ ._ The First SAM Bulletin Board |__/(_]|[ | )(_] | |(_)[ ) Saturday 12:00pm till midnight. >>>>>>> +44 1744 614150 >>>>>> Sysop: Dave Whitmore From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 04:28:31 1996 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Dean Liversidge Organization: The Mad House To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 00:04:01 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS - Spectrum? Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.32a) Message-Id: <847152313.57920.0@error.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 591 Lines: 13 > On Fri, 1 Nov 1996, ALLAN CLARKSON wrote: > > While we know that the Speccy is a good machine, most people think > > 'Horace Goes Skiing' - full stop. > > Top game, howzabout a 3d version ...? Good call, In full rendered Raytraced graphics??? -- Dean Liversidge .__ . , Co-Sysop of Dalmation BBS | \ _.|._ _ _.-+-* _ ._ The First SAM Bulletin Board |__/(_]|[ | )(_] | |(_)[ ) Saturday 12:00pm till midnight. >>>>>>> +44 1744 614150 >>>>>> Sysop: Dave Whitmore From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 07:49:26 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 08:51:27 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9611050751.AA00172@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAMSON Keyboard. X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 769 Lines: 23 > >PC layout is OK (just make sure the Control key is next to the A, not > >the Caps lock key! And put Edit out of the way so you don't press it > >accidentally instead of shift...). > > > >The Sam keyboard has a lot of mistakes, for example the locations of "=" and > >"+". > > > >imc > > But the Caps-Lock is always next to the A key. No..no.nooooo. Ctrl is next to A - ctrl is used more in modern computing and hence has been moved. > A good PC keyboard would have equal sized shift keys and a large Backspace > key. > It will need very little tayloring for SAMSON if we adopt the ALT + Keypad > keys to cope with the special characters like the copyright symbol. Copyright is on Shift+2. And you need a full keyboard with complete ISO-8859-x support. -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 08:10:37 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 09:12:13 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9611050812.AA00184@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Samson Graphic extras X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1748 Lines: 55 > Actually you only need a very limited number of commands as long as one of > them is LEARN. > > I did somthing on those line about 15 years ago where the only built in > commands were LEARN and PLOT. > > Got that doing polygons and stuff. Nice. > > Also if you are bothered about fast scrolling then there is a way to scroll > any number of pixels in any direction in just a few microseconds. > > Instead of moving all the data in memory just change the start address of > the screen. Yes, but this only allows for vertical scrolling. If you want horisontal scrolling you also need an offset-from-left register. > > This could probably be done by frigging the address lines between the ASIC > and the video memory. > (assuming the ASIC will still be doing the video) Could a offset-from-left and offset-from-top register be implemented easily? I don't know enough about the operation of the ASIC to say if address-lines can be overridden like this. The trouble with this approach is that you have to define a 'window' which the circuitry can work inside. Ie. as you move the start of the display 'upwards' in memory it will need more than what's allocated in one 32K chunck. ___________________ | | | | | | | W | X | | | | | | | ------------------- | | | | | | | Y | Z | | | | | | | ------------------- Where the screen starts in bank W and as you move in either direction, you always has one screen 'buffer' (you can have right-scrolling by setting the start to bank Z). Combining this with the line interrupts...! Now, can this be done? Is the a technical document on the ASIC somewhere? -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 09:23:31 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 09:20:50 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Wells To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: NSSS 2 In-Reply-To: <96110219375391@morse.ntu.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 394 Lines: 12 > The Second Northern SAM and Spectrum Computer Show > * The Second Northern SAM and Spectrum Computer Show * > > will be held on the 22nd of February 1997, from 10:30 > am 'till 4:30pm, at the Methodist Hall, Bank Street, > Wetherby, West Yorkshire (same venue as previous show) What a silly date to hold it! Tim W. (Who's just arranged to go to a dinner in Cambridge that night) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 09:59:25 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 04:57:41 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961105045740_1781056868@emout02.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS - Graphic extras Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 400 Lines: 13 In a message dated 04/11/96 15:16:53, you write: >From some preliminary calculations I did, 2-3 years ago when I >first considered the posibility for a port was that it should be >very possible with filled vectored version of Elite on the SAM >(with some provisions to how many objects on screen at any >time) at 50Hz. > > -Frode Yes, but filled vectored is not Elite. Elite IS wire-frame. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 09:59:45 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 04:57:48 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961105045746_1847347812@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The 8 bit SAMSON Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 325 Lines: 12 In a message dated 04/11/96 19:37:04, you write: >Incidentally, are we going to have an MMU on this Z380? It could prove >very useful for implementing Unix (and it doesn't have to be unix - any >multitasking system benefits from full memory protection and address space >independence). > >imc Ok Ian, what's a MMU? Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 09:59:46 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 04:57:48 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961105045746_1813793380@emout03.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Samson CPU(s) Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 348 Lines: 16 In a message dated 04/11/96 19:23:00, you write: >On Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:52:51 -0500, BrenchleyR@aol.com said: >> Most SAMs have memory which works at between 60 and 100 us. Most PC's are >> only 80us. > >Or even 80ns... > >imc > > Blush.... I admit it, I was wrong, and I can't even blame bad typing as the u and the n are so far apart. Bob. From imc Tue Nov 5 09:59:51 1996 Subject: Re: Hello. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 09:59:51 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611042043.UAA29252@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> from "Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com" at Nov 4, 96 08:43:33 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 303 Lines: 10 On Mon, 4 Nov 1996 20:43:33 GMT, Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com said: > On Nov 04, 1996 20:16:41, 'Dean Liversidge ' wrote: > >A nice bright orange, like the Tango orange...... > Am dis here man taking de piss? > Now if it were green.... You mean like *apple* Tango?... :-) imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 10:02:59 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: The 8 bit SAMSON To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 10:00:29 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <961105045746_1847347812@emout04.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Nov 5, 96 04:57:48 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 52 Lines: 5 > Ok Ian, what's a MMU? > Memory management unit. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 10:05:29 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961105100300.00925ed0@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 10:03:00 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SOS flash memory switch Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 384 Lines: 11 At 05:14 PM 11/4/96 +0000, you wrote: >We could get around the virus problem by inplementing a physical switch >somewhere under the bonnet. It must be switched to a 'write' position before >the flash can be written to -How often are you going to want the operating >system changed without you knowledge? > Numb. Oooooh... I *Like* that one. Simple and effective!!! Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 10:05:35 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961105100259.0092f9e4@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 10:02:59 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SOS - Graphic extras Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 400 Lines: 15 At 05:42 PM 11/4/96 +0000, you wrote: >Status: > > >> Working on a possible hardware solution for the graphics thing... >> cheap(relatively) and highly powerful... but not that hot on colour. >> >I don't think it is THAT bad on colour ;o) Well, I thought it was 256 colours onscreen only... but I was wrong. 2,4,16,256,16384,32768,65536 and 16.7million colour modes... not bad really :) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 10:05:51 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961105100258.00927790@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 10:02:58 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Graphics processor/sound board Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 498 Lines: 17 At 04:21 PM 11/4/96 +0000, you wrote: >Status: > >Lovely spec! I like indeed. >One question - how much does it cost in total (there's a lot of stuff >there, not just the processor) - and, what's the quality of the sound >output (8bit or 16bit - I care!) >davee I'm waiting for a cost, but I can see the fully populated board coming out for less than 100 UKP. As for the quality of the sound output, I think it's 8 bit, but with a 16 bit output if you've got a CD quality serial-DAC. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 10:18:03 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 11:12:21 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9611051012.AA00431@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS - Graphic extras X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 499 Lines: 16 > In a message dated 04/11/96 15:16:53, you write: > > >From some preliminary calculations I did, 2-3 years ago when I > >first considered the posibility for a port was that it should be > >very possible with filled vectored version of Elite on the SAM > >(with some provisions to how many objects on screen at any > >time) at 50Hz. > > > > -Frode > > Yes, but filled vectored is not Elite. Elite IS wire-frame. Even better :) Mode 3 situation with mode 4 control pannel. Dead smooth! -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 10:23:01 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 11:14:09 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9611051014.AA00434@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Will ISA work? X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 496 Lines: 17 > >You get state of the art graphics card for the PC at sub 200 punds. That's > >why I propose the SAM-on-ISA idea. > > > > -Frode > > It would have to be an intelegent interface wouldn't it Frode? Hmm..what do you mean by intelligent? It's a piece of metal and silicates :) > I mean the ISA bus has signels going both ways I think. > But I would love to hear more on the subject. The ISA bus is bi-directional yes. That is not a big problem as the devices are riding on interrupts. -Frode From imc Tue Nov 5 10:29:12 1996 Subject: Re: SOS - Graphic extras To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 10:29:12 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <9611051012.AA00431@asmal.edh-net> from "Frode Tenneboe" at Nov 5, 96 11:12:21 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 481 Lines: 16 Quoth RBrenchley... > Yes, but filled vectored is not Elite. Elite IS wire-frame. Not. I used to be rather good at the red-and-yellow filled version of Elite (chiefly because it was running on an XT so it allowed plenty of reaction time :-) ). And thus replied Frode: > Even better :) Mode 3 situation with mode 4 control pannel. Haven't we always said this? :-) Are you going to make the circles slightly thinner so that they don't get stretched out by the Sam display? imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 10:30:59 1996 Message-Id: <199611051015.LAA16873@dxmint.cern.ch> From: Allan Skillman Subject: Re: The 8 bit SAMSON To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 96 11:14:59 MET In-Reply-To: <961105045746_1847347812@emout04.mail.aol.com>; from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Nov 5, 96 4:57 am Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1325 Lines: 25 MMU - Memory Management Unit, basically a device which allows memory blocks to be protected by certain programs (ie the OS). Also allows blocks which are in different parts of the address space to be virtually linked, so that to the cpu they appear as one continuous address space. An MMU is not vital, but a big help in implementing OSs like UNIX. Actually I'm not sure whether the Z380 has an MMU Simon? BTW Andrew C's point about the prototype accelerator is very valid. Apart from the Z380 rather than Z80H it fits the bill for SAMSON. Given some funding (From Bob) How long would it take to get a fully working prototype done Simon? Allan -- +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Now available! XCoupe, the one and only SAM Coupe emulator | | *** http://www.hep.ucl.ac.uk/~ajs/xcoupe *** | +------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ | Allan Skillman | "There are five flavours of resons, the | | HEPP Group | elementary particles of magic : up, down, | | University College London | sideways, sex-appeal and peppermint." | | Email : ajs@hep.ucl.ac.uk | - Terry Pratchett (Lords and Ladies) | +------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 10:31:00 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961105101457.00938dd8@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 10:14:57 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Tv or not TV Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1872 Lines: 47 At 03:12 PM 11/4/96 -0500, you wrote: >Status: > >In a message dated 04/11/96 10:51:18, you write: > >[cut] >Re Z80/Z380 compatability. >There are nice extras, as Simon has pointed out, but also as Simon pointed >out - htere are drawbacks. Not every Z80 instruction is implimented, not all >take the same time to process (relative to each other that is). Well... SLL isn't implemented, and neither are the RR (IX+1),A ones... but that's the only real problem. But agreed on the timing thing... Have a look at http://www.zilog.com/ for an Acrobat format manual for more info. >Re Z380's large memory model. > It would prove difficult to mimic the SAM memory paging with the Z380. >However, until now, I had considered using the Z80B as the heart of SAMSON >and putting extra processor power onto the extended board. But it would be >possible to consider a SAMSON that had ANY processor as its main CPU buth >then has a SAM-ON-A-CARD plugged in to give 100% compatability. Or alternatively, just unplug the Accelerator (or send a software command to disable it). >At first, when building the system, you would attach the new processor to the >back of the existing SAM, which would enable software development. And for >that reason it just may be simpler to stick to the Z80B being the processor >that kicks off on power-up. > >But a Z80B there must be as far as I can see. > >Re TV or No TV, that is the question. > >I agree 256 colours could be achieved on a TV, especially with SCART but to >go beyond that I think a proper monitor would be a must. > >Question:- How many mailing list people still use a TV? Well, I don't... The thing is though, the number of colours is fine - go as high as you can, it'll make it all look so much better on a TV. The problem isn't that -- it's the resolution. 512x384 is about the highest you can feasibly tget on a TV Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 10:31:13 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961105101318.0091b9c0@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 10:13:18 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: CLI or GUI : a thesis (!) Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1104 Lines: 26 At 07:24 PM 11/4/96 +0000, you wrote: >Status: > >On Thu, 31 Oct 1996 17:29:46 +0000, Simon Cooke said: >> Ah, but the problem is that it's not possible to have a software solution to >> the floppy controller problem -- the DOS is easy to rewrite to use a new >> controller. Getting exsiting software with Copy Protection et al, however, >> is not. > >It might be easier to go with software emulation for this. I don't suppose >it should be that hard to write a Z80 emulator on a Z380, right? :-) That >might slow it down to more or less the correct speed too... >Or perhaps I/O on the disk port could be made to generate interrupts >which the Z380 services by emulating the I/O operations. That's how >VM/CMS works. You could use the same idea to replace the keyboard with a >PC-type one eventually. That's what's covered in the next issue of Based On An Idea actually ;) The thing is, it's difficult to do correctly... but we were going to generate interrupts based on I/O requests, and use a service routine in another (reserved) set of registers to handle the control interfacing. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 10:31:13 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961105101319.00927044@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 10:13:19 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: The 8 bit SAMSON Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 827 Lines: 22 At 07:35 PM 11/4/96 +0000, you wrote: >Status: > >Incidentally, are we going to have an MMU on this Z380? It could prove >very useful for implementing Unix (and it doesn't have to be unix - any >multitasking system benefits from full memory protection and address space >independence). We've looked at it... the only problem is that on-demand paging is very difficult to implement on the Z380, so that *could* be virtual memory right out of the window, unless people were willing to write their code to suit. Not something I'd relish. Could be done using our own system, but it'd involve a *lot* of stack interrogation, and reverse-decode logic (ie working out which instruction just happened). And thanks to the manual being a little obscure on the matter, we can't work out how the pipeline would affect it... Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 10:31:13 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: Graphics processor/sound board To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 10:16:47 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961105100258.00927790@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Nov 5, 96 10:02:58 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 434 Lines: 12 > I'm waiting for a cost, but I can see the fully populated board coming out > for less than 100 UKP. > You've got to be kidding, right?!! OK, I can understand that the components come in at under 100, I can imagine that the pcb is going to be around 30 quid. Also, I'd assume many of the devices are surface mount, so assembly time should be quite high - which won't matter if you're going to be assembling them for free :-) -Andy From imc Tue Nov 5 10:32:43 1996 Subject: Re: SAMSON Keyboard. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 10:32:43 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <961104151233_1215076908@emout20.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Nov 4, 96 03:12:33 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 508 Lines: 14 On Mon, 4 Nov 1996 15:12:33 -0500, BrenchleyR@aol.com said: > But the Caps-Lock is always next to the A key. Then explain why, on the keyboard on which I'm typing, the Control key is next to the A key! Caps Lock is almost useless anyway. I've pressed it more times by accident than by design, even though it's in the bottom right hand corner out of the way. imc (PS and it's so irritating when it refuses to unlock your screen and then you discover you've been typing your password in all capitals...) From imc Tue Nov 5 10:35:29 1996 Subject: Re: Tv or not TV To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 10:35:29 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <961104151238_1416738792@emout02.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Nov 4, 96 03:12:39 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 162 Lines: 6 On Mon, 4 Nov 1996 15:12:39 -0500, BrenchleyR@aol.com said: > Question:- How many mailing list people still use a TV? I do. Did you see UFO yesterday?... imc From imc Tue Nov 5 10:35:52 1996 Subject: Re: who's that girl? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 10:35:52 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611041526_MC1-BA5-95F1@compuserve.com> from "Neville Young" at Nov 4, 96 03:22:32 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 129 Lines: 7 On Mon, 4 Nov 1996 15:22:32 -0500, Neville Young said: > >OK, so someone must know who samsboss is by now... > Yep! And? imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 10:45:31 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: z380 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 10:32:56 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961105101457.00938dd8@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Nov 5, 96 10:14:57 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 118 Lines: 7 Simon, Where did you manage to get your z380 data from? The info. on the zilog web-page is very slimmed-down -Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 10:48:43 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961105103705.00940074@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 10:37:05 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Graphics processor/sound board Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 770 Lines: 23 At 10:16 AM 11/5/96 +0000, you wrote: >Status: > >> I'm waiting for a cost, but I can see the fully populated board coming out >> for less than 100 UKP. >> > >You've got to be kidding, right?!! OK, I can understand that the >components come in at under 100, I can imagine that the pcb >is going to be around 30 quid. Also, I'd assume many of the >devices are surface mount, so assembly time should be quite >high - which won't matter if you're going to be assembling >them for free :-) Well.... we're talking a little glue logic (maybe 5-8 quid), 4Mb SIMM of memory (possibly more... depends on what's needed) - 16 quid -- and the chip, which I'm hoping won't come at more than that 40 quid mark. Oh, and some buffers (for the audio) etc etc... We'll see.. Simon From imc Tue Nov 5 10:50:03 1996 Subject: Re: Tv or not TV To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 10:50:03 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "A.S. Collier" at Nov 4, 96 09:18:26 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 2199 Lines: 47 On Mon, 4 Nov 1996 21:18:26 +0000 (GMT), A.S. Collier said: > All the > other undocumented codes are repetitions of existing instructions, or > slower than usual instructions. Not. SLL is neither of these (allegedly the reason why it's undocumented is because it was supposed to be the same as SLA but in fact it puts a 1 on the end instead of a 0). The "LD E,SET 5,(IX+2)" instructions are no slower than the "SET 5,(IX+2)" instructions and, though it's hard to see any particular use for these instructions, they are not repetitions of existing instructions. > The time instructions take to process is irrelavent - because > a) They already don't all take the same time on a Z80B > b) The only routines which rely heavily on these sorts of timings are > border scrollies in demos. See also: sample players and beepers. These are also of somewhat limited use on the accelerated machine, but you do want the beeper to give out an approximate representation of the sound if you are playing spectrum games. > > Re TV or No TV, that is the question. > > I agree 256 colours could be achieved on a TV, especially with SCART but to > > go beyond that I think a proper monitor would be a must. > Anyway, in terms of our new market, people will probably think: If > you get forced to buy an expensive SVGA monitor, you may as well be buying > a PC. IMHO If we want to be selling an easy-to-use, family computer, then > not needing a dedicated monitor would probably become one of the bigger > selling points. Didn't I also hear you going on about a GUI? A windowing system on a TV is a joke. You need at least 768x512 for a decent windowing system. No one's going to buy a computer on the strength of a windowing system that runs in 4 colours on 512x192! > One other point - I may have missed something here, but I gather you were > saying we need to use the ASIC in the new boards so that we use enough for > VLSI to help design the next one. > If the boards don't use the ASIC, then why do we need a next one? Huh? You might as well ask: if the new CPU isn't going to be a Z80B then why do we need a Z380? imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 10:52:39 1996 From: sh5655@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk (SL Harding) Message-Id: <199611051041.KAA19742@dartford.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Tv or not TV To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 10:41:19 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "A.S. Collier" at Nov 4, 96 09:18:26 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1930 Lines: 37 > > Question:- How many mailing list people still use a TV? > > I do. Anyway, in terms of our new market, people will probably think: If > you get forced to buy an expensive SVGA monitor, you may as well be buying > a PC. IMHO If we want to be selling an easy-to-use, family computer, then > not needing a dedicated monitor would probably become one of the bigger > selling points. The reason I suggestted this upper limit on resolution and > colour was to keep things in perspective: we've still got to be able to > USE these graphics, however good they turn out to be. Nothing will > actually NEED a higher resolution than I said, and there's no point having > a display with uses several megabytes of video ram, if that means all our > software runs no faster than a snail's pace. I think we should concentrate > on processor for the moment, because that it the one, singular problem > which the programmer cannot work his way round. > Me too! I don't think I'll bother getting a scart lead for it -I like the way it shimmers! He is right you know. The cost of the machine could be doubled if a monitor was necessary. But I also think that some higher resolutions are necessary for viewing static pictures some times. The ST (I know we all hate comparing the computer to exsisting machines but It needs to be done, as the consumer will do it) Had a monitor only mode, within a few years of release people where writing utilities so that it could be displayed on a normal TV with minimal loss of quality. Why don't we follow their example and supply 'virual' 1024*512 resotutions that are treated internally as such and we send all of the data to the monitor port but only 1 in 4 or so pixels to the modulator. Or if the graphics processor runs fast enough we could have an overscan resolution (use the processor to send the data directly to the monitor). The first suggestion would be MUCH nicer. C9 Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 10:55:11 1996 From: sh5655@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk (SL Harding) Message-Id: <199611051045.KAA19750@dartford.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Tv or not TV/UFO To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 10:45:16 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <9611051035.AA02192@boothp2.ecs.ox.ac.uk> from "Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk" at Nov 5, 96 10:35:29 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 259 Lines: 12 > > On Mon, 4 Nov 1996 15:12:39 -0500, BrenchleyR@aol.com said: > > Question:- How many mailing list people still use a TV? > > I do. Did you see UFO yesterday?... > > imc Sad ending wasn't it! Did you use your SAM screen to watch it too? Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 10:55:11 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961105104645.0092db80@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 10:46:45 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: z380 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 442 Lines: 17 At 10:32 AM 11/5/96 +0000, you wrote: >Status: > >Simon, > >Where did you manage to get your z380 data from? >The info. on the zilog web-page is very slimmed-down Phone their Milton Keynes office, and ask them nicely to send you a set of manuals (hardware and software). They'll oblige -- tell them you're of using it as the main CPU for a controller system for an intelligent office phone exchange and voice mail controller. ;) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 10:59:53 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 05:49:12 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961105054912_1646840941@emout03.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Z30 Compatability? Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1735 Lines: 42 [cut] >The only incompatible instructions are the sort of things we Z80B >programmers shouldn't be using anyway... Let me explain this: We all know about the undocumented instructions. Although some of them were ment to be there, Zilog just had too high a failier rate on the early chips - something not suffered by clone makers. [cut] but I don't know anybody who still uses those; ever since the >idea of a Z380 based accellerator was first proposed, we've been warned >not to use those instructions - to ensure forward compatability. > Who was warned and by whome? Programmers are a very independant bunch and if anyone tells a programmer "you must not do it this way" you can bet that is just the way he will do it. Sorry, but you can't ingnore the fact that as many assemblers allow the 'undocumented' codes, many programmers have used them. >The time instructions take to process is irrelavent - because >a) They already don't all take the same time on a Z80B >b) The only routines which rely heavily on these sorts of timings are >border scrollies in demos. They wouldn't work at any increased speed, and >would probably be fairly machine-specific in any case. And you don't want >to run demos, do you? I would have thought that many many games relied on timing loops - OK on SAM the only timeing loops you can rely on are those in the ROM because RAM is contended. But come on, timing is often the most difficult part of a game to get right. With stage one of development, there will still be the Z80B on the SAM motherboard. This could pass control to a Z380 (as in Simon's Accelerator) but I think it will be easier to give both processors seperate memory and allow them to talk through buffers. > > >Andrew > > > Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 10:59:53 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 05:49:14 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961105054913_1680395501@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Tv or not TV (Nev read this) Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1809 Lines: 44 In a message dated 04/11/96 21:20:32, you write: >> Re TV or No TV, that is the question. >> >> I agree 256 colours could be achieved on a TV, especially with SCART but to >> go beyond that I think a proper monitor would be a must. > >Come on, how many colours you you think we get in actual TV broadcasts? Millions - it is an Analog system. The new digital system also allows for (I think I read somewhere) 24 bit colour. However, digital TV is much more complex that screen output from a computer. > I don't accept that more than that would be possible. Anyway, if you had >actually read the message you're replying to, you'll see that the whole >point of what I was saying was that 256 colours was the upper limit. >Please read my mails if you intend to respond - it may take a while, but >you don't have to be on-line the whole time do you? It also takes a lot >longer to write the messages. :-) But the point is, would 256 colours (just twice the number we have now, be acceptable? I think 16K colours (with perhaps a limit of 256 per scan line) would be better. And I don't think a TV would cope with that output from a computer unless it was connected to the scart socket. Nev, you there, you know more about TV than I do, what do you think? > >> Question:- How many mailing list people still use a TV? > >I do. Anyway, in terms of our new market, people will probably think: If >you get forced to buy an expensive SVGA monitor, you may as well be buying >a PC. IMHO If we want to be selling an easy-to-use, family computer, then >not needing a dedicated monitor would probably become one of the bigger >selling points. You may well be right, but for the moment, we have to aim at existing users, and I look forwared to hearing other peoples views on the TV or Monitor debate. > >Andrew > > From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 10:59:54 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 05:49:11 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961105054910_1613286509@emout02.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Why use the ASIC? Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 997 Lines: 31 In a message dated 04/11/96 21:20:32, you write: > One other point - I may have missed something here, but I gather you were >saying we need to use the ASIC in the new boards so that we use enough for >VLSI to help design the next one. > If the boards don't use the ASIC, then why do we need a next one? > >Just thought I'd ask... > > > >Andrew > > Yes, you did miss one little bit, right back at the start in fact. This is the plan: First, design and build a collection of boards to plug onto the back of the existing SAM Coupe/Elite to give lots of nice new features. This first step is an end in itself if, for money reasons, stage two can't go ahead. Second. Take the extra boards, put some of them onto a new mother board while leaving others as plug-ins, put it all in a PC style case and hay-presto THE SAMSON. Third, longer term but possible. Having used stocks of the SAM ASIC, go to VLSI and work on a new ASIC or ASICS for the Grand-son-of-SAM. Hope that makes it clear. Bob. > From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 10:59:54 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 05:49:17 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961105054915_1747504493@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Re : Killer apps. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 474 Lines: 15 In a message dated 04/11/96 23:51:27, you write: >No, Bob, there's 2 types of PCW. > >There's the original PCW, which you refer to, and the new (just out) >PcW16, which is all GUI-based, all-in-one unit. However, it's practically >useless to anyone who wants to do any programming, etc. - it's aimed at >someone who just wants to do a bit of wordprocessing, some accounting, a bit >of diarising (!), etc. > >Al. It was the new one I was refering to, SLOWWWWWWWW... Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 10:59:54 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 05:49:17 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961105054914_1713949933@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Samson Graphic extras Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 648 Lines: 22 In a message dated 04/11/96 21:33:58, you write: >On Mon, 4 Nov 1996, Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com wrote: > >> >Instead of moving all the data in memory just change the start address of >> >the screen. >> >> But does that work in ALL directions? Vertical scroll, yes. But how would >> it with horizontal? > >Of course! You change the display offset by one byte rather than 128 >bytes. > >Andrew No, not quite. Adding one to the screen pointer would cause a rap-around from the first byte of line two to the last byte of line one (and so on down the screen). You would then have to use software to move the last line of pixels into place. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 10:59:55 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 05:49:06 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961105054905_1549971181@emout20.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Son Of Sam [ROM] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 328 Lines: 16 In a message dated 04/11/96 20:38:04, you write: > >how about two blocks of SRAM, one for the system, with a hard switch as >someone sugested, then another with a software switch, for programs to use. > >-- > >Samsboss >The One And Only > > Now that's an idea I had not considered before. Could it be made to work? Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 11:03:16 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 11:55:42 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9611051055.AA00444@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS - Graphic extras X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 350 Lines: 14 > And thus replied Frode: > > Even better :) Mode 3 situation with mode 4 control pannel. > > Haven't we always said this? :-) Yes....I just hought I should bring Bob up to date. :) > > Are you going to make the circles slightly thinner so that they don't > get stretched out by the Sam display? I got 'No' from Braben, remember.... :/ -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 11:05:55 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961105110253.0092b2e4@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 11:02:53 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Tv or not TV (Nev read this) Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 578 Lines: 16 At 05:49 AM 11/5/96 -0500, you wrote: >But the point is, would 256 colours (just twice the number we have now, be >acceptable? >I think 16K colours (with perhaps a limit of 256 per scan line) would be >better. And I don't think a TV would cope with that output from a computer >unless it was connected to the scart socket. > >Nev, you there, you know more about TV than I do, what do you think? I'll but in if no-one minds... TV's can cope with any number of colours per scanline - it's just the pixel resolution that's the problem. 16K colours is perfectly feasible. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 11:06:08 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961105110252.00929bf0@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 11:02:52 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Z30 Compatability? Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1668 Lines: 38 At 05:49 AM 11/5/96 -0500, you wrote: [Undocumented instructions] > but I don't know anybody who still uses those; ever since the >>idea of a Z380 based accellerator was first proposed, we've been warned >>not to use those instructions - to ensure forward compatability. >> >Who was warned and by whome? Programmers are a very independant bunch and if >anyone tells a programmer "you must not do it this way" you can bet that is >just the way he will do it. By me on this list actually :) And in Based On An Idea... >Sorry, but you can't ingnore the fact that as many assemblers allow the >'undocumented' codes, many programmers have used them. Ah, but it's a matter of which undocumented codes we're talking about... All the ones in everyday use by programmers not working on protection encryption systems will be fine. (LD IXl,A for example). Only really esoteric (and stupid, frankly) opcodes will not work - like RR (IX+3),B. Or OUT(C),0 -- which means some of my demos will Possibly crash :) >I would have thought that many many games relied on timing loops - OK on SAM >the only timeing loops you can rely on are those in the ROM because RAM is >contended. But come on, timing is often the most difficult part of a game to >get right. Not really... most programmers synchronise to the HPEN register contents, or to line or frame interrupts. >With stage one of development, there will still be the Z80B on the SAM >motherboard. This could pass control to a Z380 (as in Simon's Accelerator) >but I think it will be easier to give both processors seperate memory and >allow them to talk through buffers. Erm....... not if graphics are going to work. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 11:24:13 1996 From: sh5655@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk (SL Harding) Message-Id: <199611051114.LAA19815@dartford.bris.ac.uk> Subject: SOS the whole thing? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 11:14:31 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961105100258.00927790@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Nov 5, 96 10:02:58 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1055 Lines: 30 Are we intending to put all of these trains of thought together and get a machine with: i,An old Sams Z80 in use; ii,An accelerated Z380 with lots of memory; iii,A RISK graphics processor (with its own memory?); ? That would be nice for the GUI, the old Z80 could handle the house keeping, The Z380 could run the applications and the RISK chip could shift the windows and background about. > As for the quality of the sound output, I think it's 8 bit, but with a 16 > bit output if you've got a CD quality serial-DAC. > > Simon > What are the praticalities of a physical CD drive? would the chip set be upto handling MPEG (soon to be MPEG2) video clips? would a music CD playing capability be cheap? -remembering that people who use the system with a monitor will need an amp and speakers anyway. If we get a decent resolution and people use it, Double/High Density disks will not store very big games! does anyone know how the cost of printing SMALL NUMBERS of CDs compare to normal disks? Is this practical for the SAM? C9 Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 11:27:26 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: Tv or not TV (Nev read this) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 11:21:33 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961105110253.0092b2e4@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Nov 5, 96 11:02:53 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 692 Lines: 17 > I'll but in if no-one minds... TV's can cope with any number of colours per > scanline - it's just the pixel resolution that's the problem. > That's right - the standard non-interlaced picture has 312 lines, of which probably 240 or so are visible - you may be able to push to 256, but they may drop off the top or bottom of the screen. With interlacing that doubles, but there's always the possibility of shimmering - don't really understand why, though - my BBC1 doesn't shimmer (but then they don't try broadcasting high-resolution text, do they?). VGA, or SVGA would be nice, but isn't feasible without re-doing all the video circuitry. And that (ideally) means a new ASIC. -Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 11:28:03 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 11:22:36 GMT+0 Subject: Re: Tv or not TV Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <13C5CC874C6@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 251 Lines: 9 Hello, > Question:- How many mailing list people still use a TV? Me for one - and I'm only recently in the possesion of a SCART TV which I hope to 'upgrade' to when I get home. Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "They call me Mad The Swine" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 11:36:02 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 11:27:43 GMT+0 Subject: Re: Tv or not TV Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <13C71F2726B@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 774 Lines: 20 Hello (again!) > > Question:- How many mailing list people still use a TV? > > I do. Anyway, in terms of our new market, people will probably think: If > you get forced to buy an expensive SVGA monitor, you may as well be buying > a PC. IMHO If we want to be selling an easy-to-use, family computer, then > not needing a dedicated monitor would probably become one of the bigger > selling points. Something I found really funny about the computer industry was that in the early Eighties, ALL home computers linked to TV's (with the exception of the Beeb) and then in the late 8)'s the link the TV was called a 'revolutionary new feature' when they managed to do it with the new-style PC's. Ha. Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "They call me Mad The Swine" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 11:36:07 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 11:28:28 GMT From: D.M.Zambonini@cs.cf.ac.uk (D M Zambonini) Message-Id: <199611051128.LAA03577@aron.cs.cf.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS flash memory switch Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: XAbTKwP71B9uYFsrQogU7A== Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 899 Lines: 23 [ snip ] > > Flat batteries? What about some slight corruption? > > Oh, virus writers are gonna **love** it.. :) > > We could get around the virus problem by inplementing a physical switch > somewhere under the bonnet. It must be switched to a 'write' position before > the flash can be written to -How often are you going to want the operating > system changed without you knowledge? > Numb. > > > DMZ > > --- > > Well, I happen to tinker with operating systems all the time. In a new machine, you'd expect quite a few updates in a short period of time to iron out all the bugs. Look at the v1/2/3 SAM ROMS... and they were made in the knowledge that they **couldn't** be easily updated. I don't think too many users are going to take a machine seriously when they have to 'raise the bonnet' and tinker with the works just to install the latest 2.6.17 OS debugged update. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 11:40:27 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 11:35:15 GMT From: D.M.Zambonini@cs.cf.ac.uk (D M Zambonini) Message-Id: <199611051135.LAA03584@aron.cs.cf.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The doesn't-have-to-be-8-bit SAMSON Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: xvlJNHeWJ+mnnmwwSH8xCQ== Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1271 Lines: 35 [ snip ] > With the new machine speed may not be percieved as so important as we will get > a great and fast machine. > Memory will not be percieved as so important as we could well go for 4 meg > on-board and a CD drive. > > I am just afraid that I (we) may go the way of the PC programmer, who cares more > about silly things such as neat code! > > > I think that just about all 512K only games could be done in 256K if we realy > wanted. Multiloads are not that bad when you have a fast(ish) disk drive like > we do. > -that was my only point. > > Numb. Well, not **all** PC programmers care about neat code. The thing about memory and proccessor speed is, you can never have too much. Since when has speed been percieved as 'not important'? ( Remembers days when screen had to be turned off to improve performance... hey.... hang on a minute ) If you want a decent machine, multiloads are out of the question. Use virtual memory, by all means, but you'll still need a large(ish) memory to avoid excessive thrashing. As a passing point of interest, the reason I never wrote Greylight was that I finally calculated that It'd need about 2Mb RAM to run at any appreciable speed ... and that's just using a 16 colour 128 x 96 pixel display. DMZ --- From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 12:00:31 1996 From: sh5655@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk (SL Harding) Message-Id: <199611051146.LAA19867@dartford.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS flash memory switch To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 11:46:36 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611051128.LAA03577@aron.cs.cf.ac.uk> from "D M Zambonini" at Nov 5, 96 11:28:28 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1603 Lines: 39 > > [ snip ] > > > > Flat batteries? What about some slight corruption? > > > Oh, virus writers are gonna **love** it.. :) > > > > We could get around the virus problem by inplementing a physical switch > > somewhere under the bonnet. It must be switched to a 'write' position before > > the flash can be written to -How often are you going to want the operating > > system changed without you knowledge? > > Numb. > > > > > DMZ > > > --- > > > > > Well, I happen to tinker with operating systems all the time. In a new > machine, you'd expect quite a few updates in a short period of time to > iron out all the bugs. Look at the v1/2/3 SAM ROMS... and they were made > in the knowledge that they **couldn't** be easily updated. I don't think > too many users are going to take a machine seriously when they have to > 'raise the bonnet' and tinker with the works just to install the latest > 2.6.17 OS debugged update. > > I miss-typed! I think most people guessed I ment to say: -How often are you going to want the operating system changed WITHOUT YOUR KNOWLEDGE! They may like it for novelty value! O.K. why not put the switch in an inconspicuous place in the front of the case. All PC cases I know have a key opperated swich in the front of the cover to disable the keyboard -why not use this? As long as most machines have the switch in the read-only position most of the time, only the saddest will write a virus for it. You are welcome to keep your switch in the 'write' position all of the time. (we could call it the Zambonini virus if you like!) Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 12:00:42 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 11:40:53 GMT From: D.M.Zambonini@cs.cf.ac.uk (D M Zambonini) Message-Id: <199611051140.LAA03595@aron.cs.cf.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS - Spectrum? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: sdCzmNLXiUZhbPrtOakAvw== Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 655 Lines: 19 > > On Fri, 1 Nov 1996, ALLAN CLARKSON wrote: > > > While we know that the Speccy is a good machine, most people think > > > 'Horace Goes Skiing' - full stop. > > > > Top game, howzabout a 3d version ...? > > Good call, In full rendered Raytraced graphics??? > -- > Dean Liversidge .__ . , > Co-Sysop of Dalmation BBS | \ _.|._ _ _.-+-* _ ._ > The First SAM Bulletin Board |__/(_]|[ | )(_] | |(_)[ ) > Saturday 12:00pm till midnight. >>>>>>> +44 1744 614150 >>>>>> > Sysop: Dave Whitmore OOooohhh. I'll do it... ;) DMZ --- From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 12:00:52 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 11:43:45 GMT From: D.M.Zambonini@cs.cf.ac.uk (D M Zambonini) Message-Id: <199611051143.LAA03600@aron.cs.cf.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The 8 bit SAMSON Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: FXKTsqWY2U69rRMsrFppIw== Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 176 Lines: 13 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > Ok Ian, what's a MMU? > > > > Memory management unit. > Obviously Ian knows thats it's wicked to mock the afflicted... :) DMZ --- From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 12:01:07 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 11:46:33 GMT From: D.M.Zambonini@cs.cf.ac.uk (D M Zambonini) Message-Id: <199611051146.LAA03604@aron.cs.cf.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: z380 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: Il8xF5PEscTIFhOowRRNeA== Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 471 Lines: 20 > > > >Simon, > > > >Where did you manage to get your z380 data from? > >The info. on the zilog web-page is very slimmed-down > > Phone their Milton Keynes office, and ask them nicely to send you a set of > manuals (hardware and software). They'll oblige -- tell them you're of using > it as the main CPU for a controller system for an intelligent office phone > exchange and voice mail controller. > > ;) > > Simon And tell them that I am as well..... :) DMZ --- From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 12:01:10 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 12:52:45 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9611051152.AA00518@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Tv or not TV (Nev read this) X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1984 Lines: 46 > > I don't accept that more than that would be possible. Anyway, if you had > >actually read the message you're replying to, you'll see that the whole > >point of what I was saying was that 256 colours was the upper limit. > >Please read my mails if you intend to respond - it may take a while, but > >you don't have to be on-line the whole time do you? It also takes a lot > >longer to write the messages. :-) > > But the point is, would 256 colours (just twice the number we have now, be > acceptable? > I think 16K colours (with perhaps a limit of 256 per scan line) would be > better. And I don't think a TV would cope with that output from a computer > unless it was connected to the scart socket. Stick to clean 8 bit _or_ 16 bit real colour. Imposing hardware limits based on scan-lines will only mess tings up. Another posibility is 8 bit pseudo colour and 24 bit palette (a 3 bytes CLUT). > > Nev, you there, you know more about TV than I do, what do you think? In fact, it depends on the TV. Most modern TV nowdays manage more difference in colours than the eye can notice. The problem is resolution with a theoretical maximum of (for PAL) 833x625. Practically, I think it's about 70% of that. > > > >> Question:- How many mailing list people still use a TV? I do. > > > >I do. Anyway, in terms of our new market, people will probably think: If > >you get forced to buy an expensive SVGA monitor, you may as well be buying > >a PC. IMHO If we want to be selling an easy-to-use, family computer, then > >not needing a dedicated monitor would probably become one of the bigger > >selling points. > > You may well be right, but for the moment, we have to aim at existing users, > and I look forwared to hearing other peoples views on the TV or Monitor > debate. The thing is that....funnily enough, the latest in computing, the NC, are based on the buier only having a TV. Perhaps there are some high-quality modulators out there for a cheap price now? -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 12:12:13 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 11:54:22 GMT From: D.M.Zambonini@cs.cf.ac.uk (D M Zambonini) Message-Id: <199611051154.LAA03628@aron.cs.cf.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Hello. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: XQOcxKADIYPaDLlXPfXKAA== Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 785 Lines: 26 > > > > What colour do you want it to be? > > > Erm, Orange..... > > > > > Orange? ORANGE? Hmmm..... **orange** > > > > What **sort** of orange? :) > > A nice bright orange, like the Tango orange...... > or maybe Black with orange keys....... Mmmmmmmm yummy. > :-) > -- > Dean Liversidge .__ . , > Co-Sysop of Dalmation BBS | \ _.|._ _ _.-+-* _ ._ > The First SAM Bulletin Board |__/(_]|[ | )(_] | |(_)[ ) > Saturday 12:00pm till midnight. >>>>>>> +44 1744 614150 >>>>>> > Sysop: Dave Whitmore I bet you like orange clubs as well, don't you?... and the orange neopolitans ( or however you spell them..) .. and Terry's chocolate orange :) DMZ --- From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 12:13:28 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 13:00:22 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9611051200.AA00525@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Tv or not TV (Nev read this) X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 388 Lines: 10 > In fact, it depends on the TV. Most modern TV nowdays manage more > difference in colours than the eye can notice. The problem is resolution > with a theoretical maximum of (for PAL) 833x625. Practically, I think it's > about 70% of that. Oh..and the horisontal resolution is halved due to interlacing. Ah.. and the vertical resolution is smeared due to too-slow cathode. ;/ -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 12:13:40 1996 From: sh5655@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk (SL Harding) Message-Id: <199611051156.LAA19882@dartford.bris.ac.uk> Subject: SOS interupts To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 11:56:10 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961105100300.00925ed0@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Nov 5, 96 10:03:00 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 402 Lines: 10 Hang on a mo. If the sound is going to be handled on the new board It might not be interupted when we use the disk drive! That will be nice. If we move the current graphics modes to where they can be handled and displayed with the new graphics circuit, palette line interupts might be disk drive stable. That will be nice too. Pity about our interupt based PC keyboard interface design! Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 12:43:45 1996 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <27075.199611051217@lily.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS flash memory switch To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 12:17:40 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611051146.LAA19867@dartford.bris.ac.uk> from "SL Harding" at Nov 5, 96 11:46:36 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 472 Lines: 8 > As long as most machines have the switch in the read-only position most > of the time, only the saddest will write a virus for it. You are welcome to keep > your switch in the 'write' position all of the time. (we could call it the > Zambonini virus if you like!) Why not just make it like the PC BIOS's (or at least some part in them), where code can be stored but not executed. It would have to copy itself into lower memory to run, but that shouldn't be a problem. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 12:43:45 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 12:18:08 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@dedekind.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Tv or not TV In-Reply-To: <961104151238_1416738792@emout02.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 851 Lines: 21 On Mon, 4 Nov 1996 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 04/11/96 10:51:18, you write: > Question:- How many mailing list people still use a TV? I do!!! (And forever retuning my TV to get a decent picture) But as soon as someone comes up with a device that can connect my SAM to my PC monitor... :) (Or at least let me know of where I can get cheap SAM-compatible monitor from... Then again I don't currently have the room for an extra box) -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 12:44:31 1996 Message-Id: <327FA42F.372@csv.warwick.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 12:31:43 -0800 From: Paul Walker Organization: University of Warwick X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Son of (Son of) Sam References: <961031123349_1181061597@emout09.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 372 Lines: 9 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > I don't think we ARE a long way behind the field. We have a > 'user-friendly' machine with a powerful and easy to use Basic. It has > built on the good Really? In terms of power and software, the Sam is far behind most computers. ('tis not /that/ user friendly either... remember the letters in Format that my uncles letter started off?) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 12:47:34 1996 Message-Id: <327FA5DE.7A33@csv.warwick.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 12:38:54 -0800 From: Paul Walker Organization: University of Warwick X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Damnation Dalmation References: <67B6A33360@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> <199611022203.WAA03982@mail.enterprise.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 174 Lines: 5 Dave Whitmore wrote: > further info, I'm here to give details. Reason for beer.. I've found out I'm > gonna be a dad again (at the silly age of 37)! :))) Congratulations :) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 12:47:50 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 12:34:15 +0000 (GMT) From: Dave Handley To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAMSON Keyboard. In-Reply-To: <9611050751.AA00172@asmal.edh-net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 329 Lines: 10 > No..no.nooooo. Ctrl is next to A - ctrl is used more in modern computing > and hence has been moved. I'm used to having Ctrl in the bottom-left corner, so on these new keyboards I keep trying to press CTRL and X to send E-mail, and putting X's at the bottom of the message instead. Embarrassing? Not at all.... DAVE X X X From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 12:48:24 1996 Message-Id: <327FA54A.3164@csv.warwick.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 12:36:26 -0800 From: Paul Walker Organization: University of Warwick X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Proposal: Workpackage References: <961101135301_1147681441@emout01.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 253 Lines: 6 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > Clear, simple Icons, arranged inside logical Folders (groups) with as little writing > as possible - that is a GUI. So how do you plan to tell one word processor from another, when they all have the same "typewriter" icon? From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 12:48:24 1996 Message-Id: <327FA599.53A@csv.warwick.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 12:37:45 -0800 From: Paul Walker Organization: University of Warwick X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Damnation Dalmation References: <67B6A33360@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 362 Lines: 9 Gavin Smith wrote: > > How do I get on the Dalmation BBS from university? I only have VAX > and Unix accounts here and they need a Hostname to telnet with and not a number as > far as I know. Any ideas? I think the short answer is that you can't... :) At least until Dave's both sorted out telnet, and is willing to spend 12 hours on the phone to his ISP... From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 12:48:25 1996 Message-Id: <327FA4AE.5F17@csv.warwick.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 12:33:50 -0800 From: Paul Walker Organization: University of Warwick X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS: Bits 'n' bobs References: <1.5.4.32.19961101122945.0091aac0@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 195 Lines: 6 Simon Cooke wrote: > Geoff Winkless wrote part of something that did that, but it has a few bugs > in it. See SAMTOMS on the FTP site. In this case, "few bugs" = "doesn't work", I'm afraid... From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 12:49:06 1996 Message-Id: <327FA713.17C9@csv.warwick.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 12:44:03 -0800 From: Paul Walker Organization: University of Warwick X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Re : Killer apps. References: <92DCF24E95@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1182 Lines: 26 Gavin Smith wrote: [modems] > Why should they have them if there is no internet software available? > I really think the new Sam needs some kind of web browser, no matter > how simple. I think you should check priorities - certainly internet access is /way/ down on my list. There are far better networks than the internet (fidonet being one of them), and if people haven't got modems for that why should they suddenly buy one because the software is there?? I think the first /vital/ thing to do is to agree who the target audience is. Is it mass market (don't think so), or existing users, or Spectrum users, or ...? Until we know that, all the discussions are slightly on the useless side of things. > very many. If it has a nice GUI with some nice internet software at a > decent price I really think it has a chance of mass market. Yes, I I'm sorry, but I really do think you're dreaming if you think the SamSon is going to be a mass market machine. > agree that CLI's are both faster and more intuitive when you get to > know them - but we really don't want to scare off beginners do we? No, we don't - but neither would I want a GUI /only/, is what I'm saying. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 12:53:07 1996 Message-Id: <327FA84F.1FB8@csv.warwick.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 12:49:19 -0800 From: Paul Walker Organization: University of Warwick X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Son Of Sam References: <1.5.4.32.19961104163848.0092d408@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 148 Lines: 7 Simon Cooke wrote: > If we compile down the JAVA bytecode to assembler, I think it's possible. > > Simon Rather you than me, is all I can say :) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 12:56:48 1996 Message-Id: <327FA928.4E2B@csv.warwick.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 12:52:56 -0800 From: Paul Walker Organization: University of Warwick X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Anti MS References: <961104151243_1747403308@emout08.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 203 Lines: 6 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > If it's not intel and if it doesn't run MS software then there are a large > number of people who will love it. But not the people with money, and not the "average" person. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 12:57:06 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 12:53:20 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@dedekind.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS - (Elite) In-Reply-To: <9611051055.AA00444@asmal.edh-net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 678 Lines: 16 On Tue, 5 Nov 1996, Frode Tenneboe wrote: > I got 'No' from Braben, remember.... :/ Who said it needs to be Elite? Why not make an Elite-feel game that has erm the feel of Elite but different somehow? In other words, an Elite clone. We could include it with the Samson bundle. :) -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 12:57:50 1996 Message-Id: <327FA90E.2349@csv.warwick.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 12:52:30 -0800 From: Paul Walker Organization: University of Warwick X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS - CLI IS basic! References: <961104151241_1583424300@emout06.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 417 Lines: 9 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > We do want to have a good DOS for SAMSON you know. MS-DOS indeed, what will > someone think of next? Go and find a copy of 4DOS, read the quick text file, and then come back and I'll talk to you again :) It's not a whole DOS, and I wasn't suggesting we base anything on MSDOS ('though I like it) - but features such as the command-line window, extremely powerful batch commands, etc. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 13:03:51 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 14:01:02 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9611051301.AA00570@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS - (Elite) X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 308 Lines: 10 > > > I got 'No' from Braben, remember.... :/ > > Who said it needs to be Elite? Why not make an Elite-feel game that has erm the > feel of Elite but different somehow? In other words, an Elite clone. Basically because it takes less time to implement something that has already been designed. ;) -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 13:19:52 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 13:10:07 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@dedekind.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <1383.199611041141@pork.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1153 Lines: 23 On Mon, 4 Nov 1996, Mr P R Walker wrote: > If anyone wants to do a search for TASM (not the borland one), that's > a table driven cross assembler which already has the Z80 code in it. It > would need changing for the Sam, but it's got to be better than starting > from scratch (and you can redefine the syntax in the definition file, so > all you'd have to do is add another file for SamSon as you work, and...) I've got this. I'm using it to code SMIDIP. I can't see why it would need changing the tables for the SAM... For the SAMson, yes. Especially for Z380. But, the way I see it, it can only cope with 8-bit machines. On another point, has anyone thought about using the 16- (Z8000) or 32- bit (Z800000?) versions of the Z80 as the main processor? -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 13:21:51 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 13:20:42 +0000 Subject: Re: Tv or not TV Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <66100EB5887@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 404 Lines: 9 I still use a TV - and even that's buggered. Not a chance I'll be getting a monitor in a long while (except when I get my PC delivered) davee +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ | doubleback : complete bobbins | torus?- 1997? it'll | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 13:26:34 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 13:23:14 +0000 Subject: Re: Samson CPU(s) Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <6610C547A37@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 457 Lines: 8 I like Windows 95, a bit, y'know. Does that make me stupid? And saying Win95 isn't graphic is like saying Win3.11 isn't a GUI - both are GUIs, I'm right and I'll deck anyone who says otherwise. davee +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ | doubleback : complete bobbins | torus?- 1997? it'll | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 13:31:04 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961105132534.0092ddb4@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 13:25:34 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: your mail Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 457 Lines: 13 At 01:10 PM 11/5/96 +0000, you wrote: >On another point, has anyone thought about using the 16- (Z8000) or 32- bit >(Z800000?) versions of the Z80 as the main processor? Yep - which is why we went for the Z380 :) The Z380 is 16-bit (or 8-bit if you prefer), with a 32-bit address bus. It doesn't have the nasty segmented memory architechture of the Z8000 either. Personally, I'd go for a Zilog HyperStone RISC chip, but that's just me dreaming... Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 13:31:05 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 13:23:58 GMT From: Diggory Gray (PWE) Message-Id: <199611051323.NAA16711@ugs2> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Son Of Sam X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 287 Lines: 16 > > Well done Deanny baby, you got it - so why do others have problems with the > > concepts? > > > > Samsboss > > The One And Only > > Flat batteries? What about some slight corruption? > Oh, virus writers are gonna **love** it.. :) > > DMZ > --- > Use EEproms then... Diggory From imc Tue Nov 5 13:46:36 1996 Subject: Re: The 8 bit SAMSON To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 13:46:36 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961105101319.00927044@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Nov 5, 96 10:13:19 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 1205 Lines: 27 On Tue, 05 Nov 1996 10:13:19 +0000, Simon Cooke said: > We've looked at it... the only problem is that on-demand paging is very > difficult to implement on the Z380, so that *could* be virtual memory right > out of the window, unless people were willing to write their code to suit. Oh... So does Zilog do a processor in the series that _is_ suitable for today's machines then? :-) I think I'm thinking of a Z8000, but I don't really know what it is. When you say it has a "nasty" segmented architecture, what do you mean? I must admit I don't really know the exact workings of an MMU that allow Unix to give each process the same 32-bit address space, but I'd like to think we could choose a processor that at least has the possibility of someone writing a Unix for it (complete with memory protection - don't quote UZI at me!). If Zilog doesn't do one that you consider to be "nice" then perhaps it's time to go back to the ARM chip (which someone has claimed has the cheapest cost/MIPS ratio) equipped with a software Sam emulator. On the other hand, we might just end up with an Archimedes so why bother building it anyway? :-) (Why don't we all just shut up and go buy a Pentium PC...) imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 13:48:14 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 13:43:40 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@navy.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Z30 Compatability? In-Reply-To: <961105054912_1646840941@emout03.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 670 Lines: 22 On Tue, 5 Nov 1996 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > Who was warned and by whome? Programmers are a very independant bunch and if > anyone tells a programmer "you must not do it this way" you can bet that is > just the way he will do it. > Sorry, but you can't ingnore the fact that as many assemblers allow the > 'undocumented' codes, many programmers have used them. I am a Z80 programmer, you are not. I do think I know what I'm talking about, thankyou. Soon after the accelerator was announced, when David Zambonini was preparing his list of Z80B timings, he marked off the ones which would not be upwardly compatable. I do know what I am talking about. Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 14:01:17 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 13:59:17 +0000 Subject: Re: SAMSON Keyboard. Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <661A5EA156B@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1363 Lines: 29 On some non-PC keyboards, the Control key is next to the A key. I HATE IT THAT WAY. Sorry, but I do. Copyright on Shift+2 ??!! Whatever next? 'TM' on shift+9??!! Shurely the @ (at) symbol is on Shift+2, either that or the quotes " symbol... I'll have nothing else... DON'T make the circles slightly thinner - I've got my TV bodged so that it stretches the pictures especially to make SAMs circles *ROUND*. I'd be back where I started. Unless, I'm the only one who's done this. But those ellipsoidal circles really get my goar As for interrupt-based PC keyboard, can you not have a hardware buffer (say, 16 keystrokes) from the keyboard, which, when full, ignored additional keystrokes... then the processor itself isn't interrupted (only reads the keyboard when it wants/needs to) Next.. erm oh yes, Elite.. By all means, get Elite written (I, for one, would probably buy it) but I don't recommend bundling it with Samson - it *is* an ==old== game... ... and I'll probably be getting a PC soon anyway .. I'm fairly sure I'm right in thinking you can't get ML or Prolog for a Sam... daveee +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ | doubleback : complete bobbins | torus?- 1997? it'll | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 14:17:38 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: your mail To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 14:11:18 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Justin Skists" at Nov 5, 96 01:10:07 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 263 Lines: 8 > On another point, has anyone thought about using the 16- (Z8000) or 32- bit > (Z800000?) versions of the Z80 as the main processor? > The z8000 isn't a 16-bit version of the z80 - it's a completely different processor (which was nearly used in the IBM PC) -A From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 14:18:36 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 15:15:30 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9611051415.AA00886@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAMSON Keyboard. X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 409 Lines: 11 > On some non-PC keyboards, the Control key is next to the A key. I > HATE IT THAT WAY. Sorry, but I do. > > Copyright on Shift+2 ??!! Whatever next? 'TM' on shift+9??!! > Shurely the @ (at) symbol is on Shift+2, either that or the quotes " > symbol... I'll have nothing else... Sorry. Of course @ at Shift+2 - where was I? (But Ctrl next to A :). All 'extra' symbols should follow ISO-8859-X. -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 14:28:04 1996 Message-Id: <327FBCDD.638A@csv.warwick.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 14:17:01 -0800 From: Paul Walker Organization: University of Warwick X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAMSON Keyboard. References: <9611051032.AA02177@boothp2.ecs.ox.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 301 Lines: 8 Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk wrote: > Then explain why, on the keyboard on which I'm typing, the Control key is > next to the A key! Because it is on the "unix-y" keyboards, IYKWIM. It's not on most of the PC qwerty ones. In fact, the other day was the first time I'd even /seen/ one by the A key. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 14:37:35 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: SAMSON Keyboard. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 14:33:03 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <327FBCDD.638A@csv.warwick.ac.uk> from "Paul Walker" at Nov 5, 96 02:17:01 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 329 Lines: 10 > Because it is on the "unix-y" keyboards, IYKWIM. It's not on most of the What the heck does IYKWIM mean???? > PC qwerty ones. In fact, the other day was the first time I'd even /seen/ > one by the A key. our computer unit has a nasty habit of putting PC keyboards on some boxes, and UNIXy ones on others, Most confusing! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 15:35:37 1996 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 15:20:06 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAMSON Keyboard. In-Reply-To: <961104151233_1215076908@emout20.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 635 Lines: 19 On Mon, 4 Nov 1996 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: ;>>PC layout is OK (just make sure the Control key is next to the A, not ;>>the Caps lock key! And put Edit out of the way so you don't press it ;>>accidentally instead of shift...). ;>> ;>But the Caps-Lock is always next to the A key. Not on sun sparcstation keyboards. I agree with ian. Control should be to the left of A, it makes control commands ( If we're going to have something like vi or similar..) a hell of a lot easier. Lee. How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, they just make darkness the industry standard! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 15:35:38 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 15:21:28 GMT From: Keith Turner Message-Id: <9611051521.AA07860@turner.cursci.co.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Re : Killer apps - Internet Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1442 Lines: 34 > I think you should check priorities - certainly internet access is /way/ > down on my list. There are far better networks than the internet (fidonet > being one of them), and if people haven't got modems for that why should > they suddenly buy one because the software is there?? When I read this I laughed out loud, but that's not very constructive, so I'll try and comment constructively. I haven't used fidonet, but then I haven't read any magazines or newspaper articles or seen any TV programs or advertisements which suggested I can get information I want from fidonet. I'd rate a network by multiplying the number of machines which connect to it by the number of services available through it. That gives the Internet a score in the billions. How do you score fidonet? Some big players in the computer world are falling over each other to produce a "Network Computer", a device for browsing the well-established information systems on the Internet, and any successor to them. If they think there is a market for cheap Internet devices, then that might be a market we can sell Samson in. Imagine the adverts ... Explore the Web and read e-mail using your TV, your existing phone-line, and a Samson Network Computer retailing at 399.99 pounds The demand could be huge. I'm not saying implementing the Internet protocol stack (from PPP to TCP) would be easy, but it would make the computer a marketable product. / To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Samson CPU(s) In-Reply-To: <961104151240_1516315436@emout05.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1075 Lines: 28 On Mon, 4 Nov 1996 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: ;> ;>>> Win95 is very difficult to call a GUI because of the extensive use of the ;>>> Menu Bar. ;>> ;>>How so? It's graphic, it's an interface between the user and the internal ;>>gubbins, therefore it's a Graphical User Interface. ;> ;>Its not Graphic, it pulls up a list on menus to which you have to aline your ;>pointer to get the next list of menus to which you have to move carefully or ;>you will find your list gone and another in its place and when you get to ;>each menu you have to stop and read each item because the little graphics ;>they give are far to small (even in their large setting) and so it goes, on ;>and on and on. It gives me a headache every time I'm forced to use '95. ;>> I agree with Bob, it's not a GUI, it's a WIMP. The two terms have been replaced by GUI only in recent years, resulting in a bit of confusion as to what they _really_ are. Lee. How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, they just make darkness the industry standard! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 15:37:25 1996 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 14:51:29 +0000 From: Dan Doore To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAMSON Keyboard. - Reply Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 657 Lines: 22 > > Then explain why, on the keyboard on which I'm typing, the Control key is > > next to the A key! > > Because it is on the "unix-y" keyboards, IYKWIM. It's not on most of the PC > qwerty ones. In fact, the other day was the first time I'd even /seen/ one > by the A key. This argument can swing either way, both keyboards are different and that's just the way it is. On the PC the CTRL-below-space layout (to me) seems a more locical place to put it since it is in a cluster with the shift and ALT keys which are extensively used in PC applications. You could put the keymaps as part of a flash ROM and then everybody could be happy :) Dan. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 15:37:27 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 14:52:59 +0000 Subject: Re: SAMSON Keyboard. Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <6628B2C2205@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 303 Lines: 8 IYKWIM = if you know what i mean ISTTO! davee +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ | doubleback : complete bobbins | torus?- 1997? it'll | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 15:37:28 1996 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 15:12:56 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Hello. In-Reply-To: <9611041734.AA01750@booth15.ecs.ox.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 489 Lines: 16 On Mon, 4 Nov 1996 Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk wrote: ;>Nope, not irrelevant. Elm uses it to order my mail, so if yours is wrong it ;>appears out of order. You might think that's trivial and you are entitled ;>to your opinion, but it's not irrelevant. ;> So does pine. Now I realise why I seem to get answers before the questions Lee. How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, they just make darkness the industry standard! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 15:37:58 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 14:56:24 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@napier.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAMson marketing In-Reply-To: <661A5EA156B@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1450 Lines: 33 On Tue, 5 Nov 1996, Dave Hooper wrote: > Next.. erm oh yes, Elite.. By all means, get Elite written (I, for > one, would probably buy it) but I don't recommend bundling it with > Samson - it *is* an ==old== game... I didn't say bundle Elite with SAMson... I said we could bundle an Elite-type game with it! There are a ****LOT**** of people out there who love games like Elite. We *NEED* bundled games (DECENT ones) for SAMson. I only got Quizball with my SAM. Played it about three times and that was it... > ... and I'll probably be getting a PC soon anyway .. I'm fairly sure > I'm right in thinking you can't get ML or Prolog for a Sam... As soon as we get a decent ANSI C for the SAM, we could have anything we damn well please! :) Until we do, we're buggered... :( Remember, we can't even think about marketing SAMson without software (especially games) ready for it. *THAT* was, IMHO, *THE* problems with SAM in the first place. Being late didn't really have that much to do with it (although it did help)! I apologise if I seem agro.... -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 15:45:37 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 15:33:03 +0000 Subject: Re: SAMson marketing Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <663362F331A@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 533 Lines: 9 Ok - I agree. But would an Eilte-style game still cut the mustard? Certainly it needs to be bundled with a (good) wordprocessor, spreadsheet, GUI (with assorted applications, etc), and at least some good games. My SAM came with the MGT demo tape. And quite cack it was too. +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ | doubleback : complete bobbins | torus?- 1997? it'll | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 15:45:50 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 15:42:07 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Anti MS Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 120 Lines: 7 > Samsboss > Founder of the "I Hate PCs Club" Ohhh.. How much is membership? -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 15:48:01 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 15:37:37 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Tv or not TV Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 166 Lines: 6 > Question:- How many mailing list people still use a TV? Me! Me!! I use a TV! I WANT a monitor. But I can't afford one. -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 15:58:32 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 10:43:55 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961105104353_1148178313@emout17.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The 8 bit SAMSON Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 336 Lines: 12 In a message dated 05/11/96 10:18:44, you write: >BTW Andrew C's point about the prototype accelerator is very valid. Apart >from the Z380 rather than Z80H it fits the bill for SAMSON. Given some >funding (From Bob) How long would it take to get a fully working >prototype done Simon? > >Allan Yes, and how much funding Simon? Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 16:16:15 1996 Message-Id: <327FD6DE.22C1@csv.warwick.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 16:07:58 -0800 From: Paul Walker Organization: University of Warwick X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Re : Killer apps - Internet References: <9611051521.AA07860@turner.cursci.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1398 Lines: 28 Keith Turner wrote: > When I read this I laughed out loud, but that's not very constructive, so > I'll try and comment constructively. Hmm. Well, at least it's a reply :) > I haven't used fidonet, but then I haven't read any magazines or newspaper > articles or seen any TV programs or advertisements which suggested I can get > information I want from fidonet. You can get more or less any information you want from Fido. The echos ("newsgroups", if you like) are also far better than the internet ones, and in fact I'm quite missing them. :( > I'd rate a network by multiplying the number of machines which connect to it > by the number of services available through it. That gives the Internet a > score in the billions. How do you score fidonet? Ah. So, you don't give any ratings for quality then? Services are more or less the same, apart from the fact that you can't get a file "remotely" as you do with the internet - that's useful, yes. However, you can attach files, send private mail, public mail, grab files, etc. > Some big players in the computer world are falling over each other to produce > a "Network Computer", a device for browsing the well-established information Fair enough - that's one thing I hadn't heard about. Forgive me if I remain sceptical that simply bundling a web browser with anything will sell it, though. :) Paul [ Who still far prefers Fido ] From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 16:17:21 1996 Message-Id: <327FD5BF.37AE@csv.warwick.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 16:03:11 -0800 From: Paul Walker Organization: University of Warwick X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAMSON Keyboard. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 340 Lines: 11 Andrew M Gale wrote: > What the heck does IYKWIM mean???? If You Know What I Mean. Sorry, I thought that was used on the internet. > our computer unit has a nasty habit of putting PC keyboards > on some boxes, and UNIXy ones on others, Most confusing! Same here... gets rather confusing when you try to exit from Jove, or log in. :) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 16:17:29 1996 Message-Id: <327FD708.E23@csv.warwick.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 16:08:40 -0800 From: Paul Walker Organization: University of Warwick X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAMSON Keyboard. - Reply References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 135 Lines: 6 Dan Doore wrote: > You could put the keymaps as part of a flash ROM and then everybody could be happy > :) Sensible man, this one :) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 16:17:29 1996 Message-Id: <327FD81C.5D5A@csv.warwick.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 16:13:16 -0800 From: Paul Walker Organization: University of Warwick X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: your mail References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 322 Lines: 7 Justin Skists wrote: > I've got this. I'm using it to code SMIDIP. I can't see why it would need > changing the tables for the SAM... For the SAMson, yes. Especially for Z380. If it's working for you, then well done - but I wrote some code both in Comet and in Tasm, compared the output, and it was totally different. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 16:28:49 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961105161829.00926488@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 16:18:29 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: The 8 bit SAMSON Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 536 Lines: 16 At 10:43 AM 11/5/96 -0500, you wrote: >>BTW Andrew C's point about the prototype accelerator is very valid. Apart >>from the Z380 rather than Z80H it fits the bill for SAMSON. Given some >>funding (From Bob) How long would it take to get a fully working >>prototype done Simon? >> >>Allan > >Yes, and how much funding Simon? Ummmm.... I honestly don't know... the problem at this end is time -- ie Martin and I don't have any (because of our respective jobs and the fact that Martin's still rebuilding his house from scratch). Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 17:06:11 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 11:51:20 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961105115119_1914498252@emout19.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The 8 bit SAMSON Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 148 Lines: 9 In a message dated 05/11/96 13:47:55, you write: >(Why don't we all just shut up and go buy a Pentium PC...) > >imc No money - that's why. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 17:06:20 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 11:51:12 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961105115111_1449978315@emout13.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAMSON Keyboard. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 881 Lines: 29 In a message dated 05/11/96 15:24:19, you write: >;>But the Caps-Lock is always next to the A key. > >Not on sun sparcstation keyboards. I agree with ian. Control should be to >the left of A, it makes control commands ( If we're going to have >something like vi or similar..) a hell of a lot easier. > >Lee. Mmmmm. But we have to cope with the standard keyboard layout - or everyone who has ever taken typing lessons will turn their nose up at it. I had to spend reallll money to get a 'proper' keyboard that Jenny could use at high speed - the reason? Most new keyboards only have a small shift key on the left-hand side - no good for typists. Sorry, but I can't cange the industy standard. > > > How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light >bulb? > None, they just make darkness the industry standard! > > Nice one Lee. Any more? From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 17:06:39 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 11:51:21 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961105115120_1847389516@emout18.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAMSON Keyboard. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 346 Lines: 12 In a message dated 05/11/96 13:56:09, you write: >As for interrupt-based PC keyboard, can you not have a hardware >buffer (say, 16 keystrokes) from the keyboard, which, when full, >ignored additional keystrokes... then the processor itself isn't >interrupted (only reads the keyboard when it wants/needs to) > > Yes, most certainly. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 17:06:40 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 11:51:22 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961105115121_1081080908@emout02.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Z30 Compatability? Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2208 Lines: 58 In a message dated 05/11/96 13:45:53, you write: > >On Tue, 5 Nov 1996 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: >> Who was warned and by whome? Programmers are a very independant bunch and >if >> anyone tells a programmer "you must not do it this way" you can bet that is >> just the way he will do it. >> Sorry, but you can't ingnore the fact that as many assemblers allow the >> 'undocumented' codes, many programmers have used them. > >I am a Z80 programmer, you are not. I do think I know what I'm talking >about, thankyou. > I started Z80 machine code programming in 1980 (on a TRS-80) then moved via the ZX81 to the Spectrum and then the SAM. So that's 16 years so far. Add to that assembler level programming on ICL1900 mainframes and DEC PDP11 and VAX mini computers. A little bit of 6502 on the PET and BBC. Fortran, Algol, DTPL6, Cobol (horrid) Basic (too many versions to mention) BCPL (including implimenting the compiler on the ICL mainframe) + at least a dozen more programming languages that I have had to debug programs in. All dating back to 1976, which makes twenty years experiance in computer programming, maintinance and support. Now who knows what he is talking about??? >Soon after the accelerator was announced, when David Zambonini was >preparing his list of Z80B timings, he marked off the ones which would not >be upwardly compatable. > >I do know what I am talking about. > You still miss the point - the Z380 is not a Z80B. We may be able to live with some of the differences, we may be able to get round many of the others, but for 100% compatability - we have to use the Z80B. In the first stage, it is there anyway, so any SAM software will run on the internal Z80, with the V3 ROM paged in - so no change, it will just be like an unexpanded SAM. In stage two, I still think the best course would be to leave the Z80B as the master processor, the Z380 (or another chip) can then run new SAMSON software under its own control and use the Z80 for some of the i/o workload. Add a dedicated graphics board to lower the overhead on the Z380 and the machine will be FFFAAASSSTTT. > > > >Andrew > > An, on a personal note, I think you need to get that large chip off your shoulder. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 17:06:40 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 11:51:23 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961105115122_1181736780@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Re : Killer apps. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1314 Lines: 29 In a message dated 05/11/96 12:49:04, you write: >I think the first /vital/ thing to do is to agree who the target audience >is. Is it mass market (don't think so), or existing users, or Spectrum >users, or ...? Until we know that, all the discussions are slightly on >the useless side of things. No, not useless, they all help to get ideas together. The final draft spec is coming along. But here are just 4 of the potential markets. Market 1: Existing SAM Users. Some will want to replace their SAM Coupe/Elite with the new look machine. Market 2: Spectrum and other Z80 based computer users who want to stick with a processor they love. You may think that this is small, but most SAM sales have been to Spectrum users upgrading. Market 3: The 'man in the street' (or more correctly the man/woman in the home) who wants a computer that they can learn with. Something they can explore programming, possibley a cheap access to the WWW (as opposed to the wider internet) and email. Something that is cheap enough that it does not use up the entire families budget to get it. Market 4: The computer novice who just wants a cheap machine that will run the one peice of software he really needs to use. Now this is a VERY big market - if the right piece of software was written. But more on that next year. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 17:06:40 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 11:51:25 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961105115124_1349315020@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Tv or not TV (Nev read this) Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 500 Lines: 14 In a message dated 05/11/96 11:55:14, you write: >The thing is that....funnily enough, the latest in computing, the NC, >are based on the buier only having a TV. Perhaps there are some >high-quality modulators out there for a cheap price now? > > -Frode There are some VERY good modulators, at very high prices. Some are used to connect camcorders to TVs. If we go for SCART (or something similar) then a TV modulator could be made available to anyone who needed one - at a price of course. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 17:06:51 1996 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 16:57:52 +0000 From: Dan Doore To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAMSON Keyboard. - Reply Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 258 Lines: 14 > > How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? > > None, they just make darkness the industry standard! > > Nice one Lee. Any more? http://www.kern.com/~daemonic/funnies/ All the email stuff you will ever (never) need :) Dan. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 17:06:52 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 11:51:27 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961105115125_1416932786@emout09.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS flash memory switch Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 392 Lines: 16 In a message dated 05/11/96 11:48:46, you write: >They may like it for novelty value! >O.K. why not put the switch in an inconspicuous place in the front of the >case. >All PC cases I know have a key opperated swich in the front of the cover >to disable the keyboard -why not use this? > > Wonderful idea. Go to the top of the class. Now why didn't I think of that (grin). Thanks. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 17:07:05 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 11:51:17 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961105115117_1781098316@emout17.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAMSON Keyboard. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 239 Lines: 10 In a message dated 05/11/96 14:16:32, you write: >Sorry. Of course @ at Shift+2 - where was I? (But Ctrl next to A :). >All 'extra' symbols should follow ISO-8859-X. > > -Frode Got a copy of ISO-8859-X you can let me have Frode? Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 17:07:08 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 11:51:26 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961105115123_1282313164@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Proposal: Workpackage Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 379 Lines: 14 In a message dated 05/11/96 12:48:44, you write: >BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: >> Clear, simple Icons, arranged inside logical Folders (groups) with as >little writing >> as possible - that is a GUI. > >So how do you plan to tell one word processor from another, when they all >have the same "typewriter" icon? > > Each has its own icon. Amipro, Galaxy, Write and WordPro. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 17:07:28 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 11:51:28 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961105115126_1516456268@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Tv or not TV Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 469 Lines: 16 In a message dated 05/11/96 11:32:41, you write: >Something I found really funny about the computer industry was that >in the early Eighties, ALL home computers linked to TV's (with the >exception of the Beeb) and then in the late 8)'s the link the TV was >called a 'revolutionary new feature' when they managed to do it with >the new-style PC's. > >Ha. > >Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) >"They call me Mad The Swine" The BBC B worked with a TV. Bob. From imc Tue Nov 5 17:17:29 1996 Subject: Re: Hello. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 17:17:29 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Lee" at Nov 5, 96 03:12:56 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 472 Lines: 12 On Tue, 5 Nov 1996 15:12:56 +0000 (GMT), Lee said: > On Mon, 4 Nov 1996 Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk wrote: > ;>Nope, not irrelevant. Elm uses it to order my mail, so if yours is wrong it > ;>appears out of order. > So does pine. Now I realise why I seem to get answers before the questions And incidentally it seems that this week's winner is Paul Walker, whose computer thinks it is living in California so his mails always float to the bottom of the display... imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 17:23:26 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 17:18:57 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Re : Killer apps - Internet Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 786 Lines: 22 > Some big players in the computer world are falling over each other to produce > a "Network Computer", a device for browsing the well-established information > systems on the Internet, and any successor to them. If they think there is > a market for cheap Internet devices, then that might be a market we can sell > Samson in. > > Imagine the adverts ... > > Explore the Web and read e-mail using your TV, your existing phone-line, and > a Samson Network Computer retailing at 399.99 pounds > > The demand could be huge. > > I'm not saying implementing the Internet protocol stack (from PPP to TCP) > would be easy, but it would make the computer a marketable product. I agree with this, as well. I'D use the SAMson for internet access. -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 17:23:51 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 17:04:29 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Hello. Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 259 Lines: 10 > I bet you like orange clubs as well, don't you?... and the orange > neopolitans ( or however you spell them..) .. and Terry's chocolate orange > > :) MMmmm.. Yes! We'll have the case chocolate orange FLAVOURED! -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 17:23:51 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 17:16:56 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Samson CPU(s) Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 244 Lines: 9 > I agree with Bob, it's not a GUI, it's a WIMP. The two terms have been > replaced by GUI only in recent years, resulting in a bit of confusion as > to what they _really_ are. > I agree with this too. -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 17:24:06 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 17:22:09 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Proposal: Workpackage Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 445 Lines: 13 > > Clear, simple Icons, arranged inside logical Folders (groups) with as little writing > > as possible - that is a GUI. > > So how do you plan to tell one word processor from another, when they all > have the same "typewriter" icon? I think the key words here are "AS LITTLE writing as possible.". Okay, you'd have to have a LITTLE text with the icons, but most of the time it wouldn't be needed. -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 17:31:33 1996 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 17:23:13 +0000 From: Dan Doore To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re : Killer apps - Internet - Reply Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 627 Lines: 13 > Some big players in the computer world are falling over each other to produce > a "Network Computer", a device for browsing the well-established information > systems on the Internet, and any successor to them. If they think there is > a market for cheap Internet devices, then that might be a market we can sell > Samson in. If you are going to produce this sort of 'Internet Toaster', a prerequisite would have to be a *very* fast serial connection for a modem or even ISDN adaptor. Could the solutions being put foward handle this sort of data stream either via RS232 or even something more spicey like the USB? Dan. From imc Tue Nov 5 17:35:25 1996 Subject: Re: SAMSON Keyboard. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 17:35:25 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <961105115111_1449978315@emout13.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Nov 5, 96 11:51:12 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 632 Lines: 13 On Tue, 5 Nov 1996 11:51:12 -0500, BrenchleyR@aol.com said: > Mmmmm. But we have to cope with the standard keyboard layout - or everyone > who has ever taken typing lessons will turn their nose up at it. But I'm not suggesting moving the letters around... Do people who take typing lessons come to rely on the caps lock key then? As far as I am concerned you could remove it entirely. I don't see much use for it and certainly not enough to put it next to the A. Control on the other hand is used frequently (but not on a Sam) so it belongs on the home row next to the A. imc (I know, let's ship it with a Dvorak keyboard...) From imc Tue Nov 5 17:36:58 1996 Subject: Re: SAMson marketing To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 17:36:58 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <663362F331A@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> from "Dave Hooper" at Nov 5, 96 03:33:03 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 270 Lines: 7 On Tue, 5 Nov 1996 15:33:03 +0000, Dave Hooper said: > Ok - I agree. But would an Eilte-style game still cut the mustard? Why not? It's still pretty popular, apparently (well popular enough for Revelation to make a new release for the Sam that isn't even new!). imc From imc Tue Nov 5 17:39:54 1996 Subject: Re: SAMSON Keyboard. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 17:39:54 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <661A5EA156B@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> from "Dave Hooper" at Nov 5, 96 01:59:17 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 468 Lines: 10 On Tue, 5 Nov 1996 13:59:17 +0000, Dave Hooper said: > DON'T make the circles slightly thinner - I've got my TV bodged so > that it stretches the pictures especially to make SAMs circles > *ROUND*. I'd be back where I started. Unless, I'm the only one who's > done this. But those ellipsoidal circles really get my goar Um... how many Sam users haven't done this to their TV? How many have (or should I say 'has')? Now, how do we please the most users?... imc From imc Tue Nov 5 17:41:24 1996 Subject: Re: Tv or not TV (Nev read this) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 17:41:24 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <9611051200.AA00525@asmal.edh-net> from "Frode Tenneboe" at Nov 5, 96 01:00:22 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 235 Lines: 7 On Tue, 5 Nov 1996 13:00:22 +0100, Frode Tenneboe said: > Oh..and the horisontal resolution is halved due to interlacing. Ah.. > and the vertical resolution is smeared due to too-slow cathode. ;/ Isn't that the wrong way round? imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 17:41:36 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 11:51:17 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961105115116_1613326027@emout15.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAMson marketing Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1122 Lines: 40 In a message dated 05/11/96 15:23:35, you write: >We *NEED* bundled games (DECENT ones) for SAMson. I only got Quizball with my >SAM. Played it about three times and that was it... We do not need bundled anything. But we do need a reasonable range of software from day one, that is why I'm going the add-it-on-to-SAM route to start with. > >> ... and I'll probably be getting a PC soon anyway .. I'm fairly sure >> I'm right in thinking you can't get ML or Prolog for a Sam... > >As soon as we get a decent ANSI C for the SAM, we could have anything we damn >well please! :) If you believe that, can I interest you in a map I've got to some hidden treasure - only 10,000 UKP to you. >Until we do, we're buggered... :( What you get up to in your own home is none of our business... (grin) > >Remember, we can't even think about marketing SAMson without software >(especially games) ready for it. *THAT* was, IMHO, *THE* problems with SAM in >the first place. Being late didn't really have that much to do with it >(although it did help)! Umm, not really true. > >I apologise if I seem agro.... Accepted. Bob. From imc Tue Nov 5 17:42:36 1996 Subject: Re: SOS interupts To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 17:42:36 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611051156.LAA19882@dartford.bris.ac.uk> from "SL Harding" at Nov 5, 96 11:56:10 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 340 Lines: 9 On Tue, 5 Nov 1996 11:56:10 +0000 (GMT), SL Harding said: > If we move the current graphics modes to where they can be handled and > displayed with the new graphics circuit, palette line interupts > might be disk drive stable. That will be nice too. Um, if you are using new graphics circuits you won't need palette line interrupts! imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 17:52:05 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 17:46:37 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@puce.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Z30 Compatability? In-Reply-To: <961105115121_1081080908@emout02.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3104 Lines: 71 On Tue, 5 Nov 1996 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 05/11/96 13:45:53, you write: > >I am a Z80 programmer, you are not. I do think I know what I'm talking > >about, thankyou. > > > I started Z80 machine code programming in 1980 (on a TRS-80) then moved via > the ZX81 to the Spectrum and then the SAM. So that's 16 years so far. Okay, I didn't know that. (Mainly because I have never seen any machine code program written by you. I would be interested to see something, is there anything you could upload to NVG?) I am also surprised, because I can hardly believe that such an expert in machine code programming could have ever made the following idiotic comment. (I would have replied to this first time, but I only had ten minutes between lectures. I wrote a reply but considered it too patronising and deleted it. This time you have, basically, asked for it) No programmer, ever, anywhere, on any computer in the history of man, would rely on the instruction timings to control the speed of the game. Absolutely without fail, every time, always, indesputably will use frame/line interrupts or some other hardware feature such as the HPEN port. Never, ever, would the length of the instruction be of critical importance if any user interaction is concerned (pretty important in a game...) Does a game run at a different speed when the player presses a key, which has to be interpreted by the computer? Of course not. Don't be silly! The only exception is, eg, creation of a large number of sprites - the game may slow down because it has a lot of extra work to do and cannot keep up. A faster processor will aid this problem - not compound it. > Add to that assembler level programming on ICL1900 mainframes and DEC PDP11 > and VAX mini computers. A little bit of 6502 on the PET and BBC. Fortran, > Algol, DTPL6, Cobol (horrid) Basic (too many versions to mention) BCPL > (including implimenting the compiler on the ICL mainframe) + at least a dozen > more programming languages that I have had to debug programs in. All dating > back to 1976, which makes twenty years experiance in computer programming, > maintinance and support. I thought we were talking about Z80 assembly. > You still miss the point - the Z380 is not a Z80B. We may be able to live > with some of the differences, we may be able to get round many of the others, > but for 100% compatability - we have to use the Z80B. Nothing is a Z80B, except for a Z80B. Use that, and we won't have gone anywhere. Is it worth all the effort? > In the first stage, it is there anyway, so any SAM software will run on the > internal Z80, with the V3 ROM paged in - so no change, it will just be like > an unexpanded SAM. Congratulations! You've just agreed with us. Is it so difficult to admit for a change that I was right? > An, on a personal note, I think you need to get that large chip off your > shoulder. Ha ha. Oh come on Bo, don't let's start that again. It is perfectly obvious you haven't really read my messages - I just get a bit cheesed off when people argue with things I didn't say. Andrew From imc Tue Nov 5 17:59:16 1996 Subject: Re: Tv or not TV (Nev read this) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 17:59:16 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <9611051152.AA00518@asmal.edh-net> from "Frode Tenneboe" at Nov 5, 96 12:52:45 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 662 Lines: 18 On Tue, 5 Nov 1996 12:52:45 +0100, Frode Tenneboe said: > Stick to clean 8 bit _or_ 16 bit real colour. Imposing hardware limits based > on scan-lines will only mess tings up. Another posibility is 8 bit pseudo > colour and 24 bit palette (a 3 bytes CLUT). What is "16 bit real colour"? The only sensible arrangements I know are... 1. 256-element CLUT with RGB colour values for each entry (which seems to be what you call "8 bit pseudo"), and 2. RGB colour values for each pixel. It's sensible to have one byte each for R, G and B. I suppose to save memory you could make them 5 bits and have a 15-bit display, but 16 doesn't divide by 3! :-) imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 18:02:51 1996 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 17:58:39 GMT Subject: Re: Re : Killer apps. Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2331 Lines: 51 > Gavin Smith wrote: > [modems] > > Why should they have them if there is no internet software available? > > I really think the new Sam needs some kind of web browser, no matter > > how simple. > > I think you should check priorities - certainly internet access is /way/ > down on my list. There are far better networks than the internet (fidonet > being one of them), and if people haven't got modems for that why should > they suddenly buy one because the software is there?? It may be way down your list, but in case you hadn't noticed, the internet is the buzzword in computing at the moment. If the Sam was bundled with software (a very simple web browser, email client - and I understand that emails have already been sent using Sams) and a modem, and labeled "SAM - internet in a box" it would sell by the truckload. We have to think of sales, and not just ourselves - fidonet - hahaha! > I think the first /vital/ thing to do is to agree who the target audience > is. Is it mass market (don't think so), or existing users, or Spectrum > users, or ...? Until we know that, all the discussions are slightly on > the useless side of things. Agreed but I really don't think there enough Spectrum owners around never mind enough who are want to upgrade. Think of all the computers that have been around since the Speccy came out - they are hardly want to upgrade now are they? I hope they do, but I just wouldn't count on it, that's all. > > very many. If it has a nice GUI with some nice internet software at a > > decent price I really think it has a chance of mass market. Yes, I > I'm sorry, but I really do think you're dreaming if you think the SamSon > is going to be a mass market machine. Why not? A good wordprocessor, ability to email, looks good, alternative to Microsoft/Intel - all for under stlg400? Nice one! And we all have to dream don't we? No company releases a product and says "we know this isn't going to sell or anything but here you are..." > > > agree that CLI's are both faster and more intuitive when you get to > > know them - but we really don't want to scare off beginners do we? > > No, we don't - but neither would I want a GUI /only/, is what I'm saying. Agreed - so why can't we have both? We could have a GUI that could run a CLI in a window Gavin Smith From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 18:03:02 1996 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 18:00:11 GMT Subject: Re: Re : Killer apps - Internet Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 209 Lines: 9 > I'D use the SAMson for internet access. > -- > James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk Hurray! Now was it laughed at me when I said some kind of internet software should be a priority? *grins* Gavin Smith From imc Tue Nov 5 18:03:52 1996 Subject: Re: Z30 Compatability? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 18:03:52 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "A.S. Collier" at Nov 5, 96 05:46:37 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 770 Lines: 20 On Tue, 5 Nov 1996 17:46:37 +0000 (GMT), A.S. Collier said: > No programmer, ever, anywhere, on any computer in the history of man, > would rely on the instruction timings to control the speed of the game. And you've asked them all personally, have you?... > Absolutely without fail, every time, always, indesputably will use > frame/line interrupts or some other hardware feature such as the HPEN > port. Or, as in most cases, the code just runs as fast as it can and doesn't bother about the timing. > Does a game run at a different speed when the player presses a key, which > has to be interpreted by the computer? Not usually, but then the amount of time spent interpreting the key is minute compared to controlling the aliens and printing the display. imc From imc Tue Nov 5 18:05:33 1996 Subject: Re: The 8 bit SAMSON To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 18:05:33 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611051143.LAA03600@aron.cs.cf.ac.uk> from "D M Zambonini" at Nov 5, 96 11:43:45 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 272 Lines: 10 On Tue, 5 Nov 1996 11:43:45 GMT, D M Zambonini said: > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > Ok Ian, what's a MMU? > > Memory management unit. > Obviously Ian knows thats it's wicked to mock the afflicted... :) Huh? (hint: I didn't write any of the above text) imc From imc Tue Nov 5 18:06:47 1996 Subject: Re: SOS flash memory switch To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 18:06:47 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611051128.LAA03577@aron.cs.cf.ac.uk> from "D M Zambonini" at Nov 5, 96 11:28:28 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 526 Lines: 14 On Tue, 5 Nov 1996 11:28:28 GMT, D M Zambonini said: > Well, I happen to tinker with operating systems all the time. So keep it switched on then. :-) > I don't think > too many users are going to take a machine seriously when they have to > 'raise the bonnet' and tinker with the works just to install the latest > 2.6.17 OS debugged update. Well you don't have to have the switch on the inside just because someone somewhere said 'switch under the bonnet'! imc From imc Tue Nov 5 18:07:37 1996 Subject: Re: SOS - Graphic extras To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 18:07:37 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <9611051055.AA00444@asmal.edh-net> from "Frode Tenneboe" at Nov 5, 96 11:55:42 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 261 Lines: 9 On Tue, 5 Nov 1996 11:55:42 +0100, Frode Tenneboe said: > > Are you going to make the circles slightly thinner so that they don't > > get stretched out by the Sam display? > I got 'No' from Braben, remember.... :/ Yes I do remember, but you started it! imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 18:15:48 1996 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 18:03:59 GMT Subject: Re: Re : Killer apps - Internet Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 608 Lines: 14 > Fair enough - that's one thing I hadn't heard about. Forgive me if I remain sceptical that > simply bundling a web browser with anything will sell it, though. :) > > Paul Trust me - it will. I work in PC World now and then and you wouldn't believe the number of people who don't care about the processor of the machine, the RAM of the machine, what other software it can run etc. They simply ask "can I get on the Internet with this thing?" I grin and say "certainly Sir" - another satisfied customer. The internet sells - I don't like WWW the myself but it sells! Fidonet doesn't... Gavin Smith From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 18:16:26 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 13:11:08 -0500 From: Thomas Harte <106350.2555@compuserve.com> Subject: SIMCOUPE & DISKS To: "(unknown)" Message-Id: <199611051312_MC1-BA7-307B@compuserve.com> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 916 Lines: 14 Although I wish to thank everyone who has tried to help me with Simcoupe disks, I still have not managed to load anything! The 'fdformat' command does not exist, either on my WIN95 Pentium, or my old DOS 6.2 486. I have tried 'format a: /n:10 /s:8' (it defaults to double sided formatting, by the way) and it won't even format a high density that way. As my real SAM now refuses to work for any length of time (there are days when just pressing the a key, let alone entering an actual command, will cause it to instantaniously reset) I am left without a working SAM. As such, I'll ask REALLY nicely, please, someone, help me some more! Oh, and by the way, trying to run SimCoupe on my old 486 (not an intel chip, an SGS) causes it to crash, with a message VERY similar to Dos4GW ones, when it complains of 'memory exception' or some such thing. I will provide a copy of this screen, if you want it. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 18:16:45 1996 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 18:09:39 GMT Subject: Re: SAMSON Keyboard. Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 658 Lines: 13 > On Tue, 5 Nov 1996 11:51:12 -0500, BrenchleyR@aol.com said: > > Mmmmm. But we have to cope with the standard keyboard layout - or everyone > > who has ever taken typing lessons will turn their nose up at it. > > But I'm not suggesting moving the letters around... > > Do people who take typing lessons come to rely on the caps lock key then? > As far as I am concerned you could remove it entirely. I don't see much > use for it and certainly not enough to put it next to the A. Control on the > other hand is used frequently (but not on a Sam) so it belongs on the home > row next to the A. > > imc (I know, let's ship it with a Dvorak keyboard...) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 18:17:07 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 13:11:07 -0500 From: Thomas Harte <106350.2555@compuserve.com> Subject: The SAM Elite, SAMSON, reconditioned SAM Coupes & SimCoupe To: "(unknown)" Message-Id: <199611051312_MC1-BA7-307A@compuserve.com> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1747 Lines: 42 As you'll notice in another of my messages, I now have NO way whatsoever of running my SAM software. Which leads me to the follwing questions :- 1) Judging by my problems so far, am I likely to get SimCoupe to work, to tide me over until the SAMson? 2) Baring in mind that I don't want to use a printer with my SAM right now, what advantages does the SAM Elite have over a regular reconditioned SAM. Would it be possible to have my SAM repaired / reconditioned at a reduced price? 3) Should I just wait for the SAMson? I know, Bob, that this is definitely NOT what you wanted to happen, but, before you all yell at me, I have a few more options :- 4) What is the intended price of the SAMson? Can I pay early (as in after christmas) to make up for the fact that I will be effectively restricting it's development by waiting for it, if I do decide to wait for it. 5) How much will buying all the bits to upgrade a SAM or SAM Elite to a SAMson cost, and what will be the final cost compared to just waiting for the actual article? 6) I know you already stated this, but the high bandwidth on this newsgroup means that actually finding the original date would take literallly hours, but when is the provsisional launch date of the SAMson? 7) My original SAM never worked using the scart port on it's rear, is this a hardware fault, or did I mistake the use of that port? 8) What's software support like for the SAM right now ? (I have been away for almost four years ! ). What sort of packages and games are available? Thankyou in advance to anyone who chooses to answer these. -Thomas From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 18:21:46 1996 Message-Id: <199611051818.SAA05271@mail.enterprise.net> From: davewhitmore@enterprise.net (Dave Whitmore) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: The SAM Elite. Date: 02 Nov 1996 22:33:13 References: <199611021417_MC1-B94-2977@compuserve.com> X-Newsreader: Spot 1.3 X-Mailer: NetGate 1.3 (Amiga; TCP/IP) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1089 Lines: 22 In a message of 02 Nov 96 Thomas Harte wrote to unknown: TH> So I can take it that the SAM Elite is a different computer and TH> not just the name of that SAM Coupe package then, can I? TH> Just incase you are wondering, my last reading of anything to TH> do with the SAM was, strangely enough, in the last ever issue of YS. It TH> having been less than the success everyone said it would be, I presumed TH> it would be dead soon after that anyway. SORRY! Arrgh Apologies! Sure enough.. accepted, you've been away. :) SAM Elite is a solution to the lack of availability of the Citizen slimline drives, using standard PC drives adapted through a modification, and also offers a parallel (printer, etc.) socket. I'm not sure why the name change came about, but it is basically the same as a Coupe. Bye, _ |_)ave (/\)hitmore email - davewhitmore@enterprise.net Dalmation BBS - 01744 614150 - Saturdays - 12 noon till 12 midnight. At one time people used to complain they couldn't get on, but nowadays I just spend my spare time reading mail in here. :) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 18:21:56 1996 Message-Id: <199611051818.SAA05282@mail.enterprise.net> From: davewhitmore@enterprise.net (Dave Whitmore) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re : Killer apps. Date: 04 Nov 1996 20:21:38 References: <9392A23014@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: Spot 1.3 X-Mailer: NetGate 1.3 (Amiga; TCP/IP) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 409 Lines: 13 * Cross-Reply from area 'ML-SAM.USERS' (ML-SAM.USERS) In a message of 04 Nov 96 James R Curry wrote to sam-users@nvg.unit.no: JRC> Yes, this is all well and good.. But how are we going to advertise JRC> this thing, and make sure the general population know about it? Multiple Spams in all the Comp.sys.* newsgroups might help. :)))) _ |_)ave (/\)hitmore email - davewhitmore@enterprise.net From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 14:36:06 1996 From: sh5655@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk (SL Harding) Message-Id: <199611061321.NAA02585@caligula.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Z30 Compatability? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 13:21:55 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "A.S. Collier" at Nov 5, 96 05:46:37 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2758 Lines: 60 > I am also surprised, because I can hardly believe that such an expert in > machine code programming could have ever made the following idiotic > comment. (I would have replied to this first time, but I only had ten > minutes between lectures. I wrote a reply but considered it too > patronising and deleted it. This time you have, basically, asked for it) > > No programmer, ever, anywhere, on any computer in the history of man, > would rely on the instruction timings to control the speed of the game. > Absolutely without fail, every time, always, indesputably will use > frame/line interrupts or some other hardware feature such as the HPEN > port. Never, ever, would the length of the instruction be of critical > importance if any user interaction is concerned (pretty important in a > game...) > I hate to differ but ... > Does a game run at a different speed when the player presses a key, which > has to be interpreted by the computer? Of course not. Don't be silly! > I hate to differ but ... > The only exception is, eg, creation of a large number of sprites - the > game may slow down because it has a lot of extra work to do and cannot > keep up. A faster processor will aid this problem - not compound it. > This is true. a faster processor would help but the only fear I have with the SAMSON is the fact that the screen size in the resolution we will use games will increase faster than the programming power does (poor old SAM) And before any one says that will use the old SAM mode 4 for games has another think comming! On a decent monitor 256*192 will look rubbish! What possesed MGT to think anyone would use mode 2 for games! It may be better than the speccy screen but we upgraded into a new leage! We had to compare ourselfs with Amiga programmers. In this range Mode 4 was the minimum! Will we have the same problem soon as we move into the PC range? -Not if this newsgroup can help it! > > An, on a personal note, I think you need to get that large chip off your > > shoulder. > > Ha ha. > > Oh come on Bo, don't let's start that again. It is perfectly obvious you > haven't really read my messages - I just get a bit cheesed off when people > argue with things I didn't say. > > Andrew > It does matter if someone miss-interprets a mail! It is good if that person then feals the need to write about the views they inferred as then the writer realises he/she has been missunderstood and can correct it. -Any missunderstandings that do occur due to simple slip-ups are good -they introduce a bit of random error that could result in a brilliant and unintended idea that would not have been created otherwise. Just like evolution and radioactivity I surpose! :o) (What the hell am I talking about?) Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 14:36:07 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 23:06:19 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@indigo.csi.cam.ac.uk To: Ian Collier Subject: Re: Z30 Compatability? (fwd) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3374 Lines: 78 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 21:33:37 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Z30 Compatability? On Tue, 5 Nov 1996 Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk wrote: > Or, as in most cases, the code just runs as fast as it can and doesn't > bother about the timing. Oh yes? Well, wouldn't a faster processor help then? There are only a few examples (on the Sam) of games which don't normally run at an even pace - such as Gamesmaster Games: one of the variables is called "minimum frame delay", now does that tell you anything?. Another is Lemmings, but we all want that to be speeded up anyway. Let's sum all this up: We do want to be able to run all our Sam software on whatever the SamSon turns out to be. We can either: 1) Run old software on the old Sam, the new boards being software disabled or: 2) Try to run software on the new processor. To justify the expense and (in terms of designing hardware) difficulty of (2) there must be some advantage to doing it that way, ie faster speed. Now Bob is trying to tell me that extra speed is a disadvantage. In short, I don't believe him, and even if it was, we can still use method (1). So there's no point sticking to the Z80B as the main processor, when something much better (and very nearly wholly compatible) is available - and very neccessary before we can write, say, a full c++ compiler, or this web browser people are talking about, or a proper GUI/WIMP. Anyway, how do people get sprites moving without flickering or shearing? The answer is they synchronize the screen update code with the frame interrupt. What one would not do is to count the number of instructions used so far, and execute a finite loop to make it an even number. That is the only situation where a different, faster processor would cause problems. > > Does a game run at a different speed when the player presses a key, which > > has to be interpreted by the computer? > > Not usually, but then the amount of time spent interpreting the key is minute > compared to controlling the aliens and printing the display. Okay, so what if there are less, or more aliens on the screen than usual? Does the game zoom away then slow to a snails pace? I don't think so. The programmer makes some effort to get things running evenly. Sure, if something unexpected happens and too many sprites get created, the game might slow down because the processor cannot run at a good enough speed. A faster processor will solve the problem, not make it worse. Do you see what I'm saying? No disrespect, but the people who know most about the limitations of the Z80B are the people who've been pushing that chip to its limits for the last few years. Which, I hate to say it, are us demo coders. (Note that demos aren't the only things I write now, but I do still call myself demo coder and have no plans to change that. Perhaps I will change my angle a bit for the new machine, coding small games whilst working up to "the big one" - but they'll still look like demos, it hones the art of presentation. One way to ruin a good game is to present it in a dull way.) Bob, perhaps if you forget that it was me writing this message, you may see that it does indeed make sense. Currently I get the impression you're disagreeing on principle; this is NOT a way forward.